Henry Kaestner: Solving the World's Greatest Problems Through Faith-Driven Investing #16
Henry Kaestner, co-founder of Sovereigns Capital and the Faith Driven movements, reveals his journey from Wall Street wealth to radical, faith-driven generosity. We discuss: how can impact investing help alleviate global poverty—especially in Africa? Should I impact invest or give effectively? Should I help locally or globally? Does God need us? Should we encourage other Christians to be generous?
Articles, organisations, and other media discussed in this episode
Sovereign Capital: Invests in faith-led businesses.
Faith Driven Entrepreneur & Investor: Movements connecting faith-driven entrepreneurs and investors globally.
Solving the World's Greatest Problems: Community focusing on impactful problem-solving through biblical stewardship.
Kaleo: Invests in faith-driven entrepreneurs in Sub-Saharan Africa.
Future Africa, Ventures Platform, Aruwa Capital, Sahel Capital, Sango, Sod, Tree of Life: Investment funds supporting entrepreneurs in Africa.
National Christian Foundation (NCF): Supports faith-driven giving.
Impact Foundation: Facilitates impactful investments from donor-advised funds.
Biblical References:
John 6:1–14 (Feeding of the 5,000)
Henry specifically references this miracle, highlighting how it changed his perspective on giving.
Luke 10:18 (Satan falling from heaven)
JD references serving “the least of these” directly, echoing Jesus' teaching on compassion for the needy.
Henry explicitly refers to Galatians 2:10, which emphasizes remembering the poor.
Luke 16:9–13 (Mammon passage)
Henry mentions “mammon” explicitly in the context of money and stewardship.
Luke 10:25–37 (The Good Samaritan)
Specifically referenced as the key passage for defining who one's neighbor is.
Episode Highlights:
God wants 100% of your heart
“When I came to understand that God owns it all, and that the 'why' for me is to give out of gratitude for the gift of life given me, it changed everything. God had 100% of the boy's heart in John 6, and He had only 20% of mine. I believed I owned 80%. Understanding God's ownership reshaped my entire relationship with wealth and giving”
Christians entrepreneurs are co-creators with God
“Every human being on earth has been created to be a mini entrepreneur of sorts. That doesn't mean we should have 8 billion entrepreneurs, but we need to be entrepreneurial in our work. Giving somebody a job, knowing we're created in the image of a God who worked, is incredibly important. When people lack meaningful employment, they are not fully living into their God-given dignity.”
Who’s my neighbor? Do the global poor count?
“The best passage I think we have, or the passage that's impacted me the most on what my neighbor is, is of course is the parable of the Good Samaritan, where we learn a couple things. One is that it's who we encounter. So that's one. Two is that that person could very well be from a different nation. And that's really, really important. And I think of myself as primarily a citizen in God's
And I think about my, I think that when I think about what our forebears did in the 1800s and just going to a place like Africa and bringing, yes, of course, churches, but then schools and hospitals. But as a result, that 750 million people believing in Jesus. And they're my brothers and sisters. I believe that they are absolutely my neighbor. And when I look at the poverty that they're in, I think that it is that I am convicted by that.”
Impact Investing vs. Effective Giving
"It's extraordinarily important to be able to provide capital for fate driven entrepreneurs that are out there. That's incredibly important. But again, it should not take the place of giving. And in many cases, I think that we'll find that giving will move the needle greater in any type of intervention we're looking for. So is the right mix 20 % fate driven investing, impact investing, and 80 % giving? I don't know, you can't put a number on it, but it's something to think through. And generally, if somebody put a gun to my head and said, you gotta come up with something, I'd say it's absolutely more giving than investing.”
The Great Imbalance in global investment
“80% of the world's poor are going to be in Africa by 2030, yet only 0.5% of global venture capital and private equity goes there. That ratio must change, especially among Christ-followers. Africa represents not just a profound moral imperative but an extraordinary opportunity for impact-driven investors.”
On the Impact of Impact Investing
“Every investment makes an impact. Christians must not tolerate investments in unethical practices, understanding our accountability to God for stewardship. It’s not enough to say our actions don’t matter because others might replace our investments—God calls us to integrity and responsibility in every financial decision.”
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JD (00:01)
Hey everyone, JD from Christians for Impact. So glad to be back this week. It's pretty good. We're talking to Henry Kaestner. He is the co-founder of Sovereigns Capital, a venture capital firm that invests in faith led businesses and also faith driven movements. He founded these. They have faith driven entrepreneur. That's tens of thousands of entrepreneurs all around the world, united by their faith in Christ and their desire to make a redemptive impact.
He's also got faith driven investor who were doing the same in the investing space. And most recently solving the world's greatest problems, which if it sounds a little bit like Christians for impact, it is kind of like Christians for impact. They focus on more problems than we do and have a bit of a different angle of seeing things. But I had a wonderful time digging in with Henry in this week's podcast. We started out the first 15, 20 minutes talking about his life and his story, how he came to faith.
And also his heart for impact investing, especially in Africa, serving the least of these and helping provide jobs and dignity for people who need it very much.
We talked about the big difference between impact in, addressing local poverty versus global poverty. We talked about impact investing and the impact that it does or doesn't have. We talked about the role of the church in picking up.
what's left of the recent, uh, USAID and PEPFAR freeze. And I gave him a bunch of rapid fire questions about movements and everything, uh, and anything that you can imagine. So it was a really good episode. I encourage you to lean in, check out the show notes for more descriptions and I enjoyed this episode.
JD (01:38)
Henry, thanks so much for coming on.
Hk (01:41)
JD, this is a real treat. You know, I was thinking as I was getting ready to join you today that, and I know you're big on numbers and data.
The number of people in America that get a chance to be a guest on their favorite podcast in America ought to be well less than 1%. And here I am. Here I am.
JD (01:55)
Stop.
well, I hope this lives up to the hype
Why don't you take a second to share a little bit more about who you are for those listeners who maybe don't know you and what it is you do to impact the world.
Hk (02:07)
Bye bye.
What is it that I do to impact the world? Well, maybe they're tied into who I am. So I'm a sinner saved by grace. What do I do to impact the world? The first thing I try to do is I try to understand how much God loves me and what he's done to reconcile me to him. The world's greatest problem. And I'm paraphrasing GK Chesterton a little bit here, but the world's greatest problem is me. I'm the world's greatest problem. So everything I do missionally has to do with me.
being on a journey to know God and enjoying forever. I'm betraying my Calvinist roots here a little bit, I do what I do, and maybe this gets more towards how your question is typically answered. What I do is I try to activate and encourage the body of Christ to get in the game, helping them to realize that there's a real battle going on and that they have an incredible opportunity to join that battle, to have a life that is meaningful.
to go from a black and white TV existence to a technicolor one by engaging in the battle. And that that is a much more fulfilling life than one in which we coast to our funeral and we show up to heaven while rested. And there is battle all around us. And we see it with just injustice and poverty, but really it starts, it starts with us. And if we don't recognize
JD (03:30)
So share a little bit more about your faith story and when it was you encountered Jesus in a life-giving transformative way for the first time. Was that always a part of your story or was there a concrete moment for you?
Hk (03:42)
So I don't know that there's a concrete moment, but there is absolutely a year in which it happened. I grew up in a Christian home and we were nominally Christian. But it wasn't until I turned 28 when I...
Came into when I had moved from New York. I was working on Wall Street my wife and I came down to North Carolina and we started going to a church called Church of the Good Shepherd on Garrett Road in Durham and The pastor was preaching as if he believed the Bible is true and I thought gosh What does that even mean? I mean, how can somebody who's clearly confident articulate intelligent like this guy believe that the Bible is true up until then I thought well Christianity is one of many ways to discover God. It just so happens I was born as a Christian
But many other people might find God through a different means. And he kept on talking about the Bible so much that I thought, you know, gosh, you know, I can get up to heaven. And St. Peter's there for the entrance interview. And he's like, Kessner, while you're on earth, you read like 10,000 books and you never cracked the cover of the best-selling book of all time. So I can't let you in. And I thought, gosh, it can't go down like that. I need to get a Bible. I need to read it. And I got it. And I'm like way too many pages. I can't do this.
But I got through a prep school by reading the Cliff Notes of all the classics. And I knew enough about faith to know that the New Testament was the Christian version. I thought, well, maybe that's like the Cliff Notes of the Bible. So I read that and reading it through the first time, it took me further away from faith. I found it to be offensive and exclusive. It was the second time. Well, you've got Jesus is there. I it's just like I am. I I'm, you know, I'd saw Lucifer fall like lightning. I mean, it just, I am the way the truth of life. I mean, there are a whole bunch of different things, you know, enter through the.
JD (05:05)
wow. What about it was offensive to you?
Hk (05:20)
through the narrow door, why does the path lead to destruction? I mean, who is this guy? this Jesus?
JD (05:24)
probably
a lot about money as well. Was that challenging to you, especially someone in New York?
Hk (05:27)
Yes. Well, that was the second part.
Yeah, well, that was my born again, again moment. That was at age 38. So in the intervening time between 28 and 38,
the Lord had allowed me to be very, successful in the earthly terms in business. And Kimberly and I were making a lot of money and we were given, we're given like 20 % away. I thought, you know, there's probably a special place in heaven for the double tither. I don't know where we're getting, but it's going be awesome. Like box seats, angels games, or I don't even know what it is, but it's going to be really cool. And it's coming our way. And then I met a guy named Darrell healed.
who was involved, was on the board of something called the McClellan Foundation and started a ministry that I didn't know about at the time called Generous Giving. And he listened to the different things that Kimberly and I were giving to. And he's like, oh, that's cool. Tell me more about this, et cetera. Then he asked me this question, Henry, why do you give? I'm like, what do mean, why do I give? What kind of question is that? mean, I just, know, God's given us a lot of money. I feel it's an opportunity to give back.
Maybe I might have even said something kind of theologically C minus like I want to pay it forward. I don't even know what it was. He can't remember, I can't remember. But I do know this. Over the next six months, it seemed that every time, and when I came to faith, I knew how important it was to spend daily time in God's word. I'd faithfully done that over the ensuing 10 years. But then over the next six months, after Daryl asked me that question, it seemed like every passage in the Bible had something to do with money.
Including those that essentially didn't have anything to do with money at all like, you know the boy John six five lows two fish and then Jesus takes it and he feeds 5,000 and that wrecked me
for couple of ways. One was it was clear that God could take something out of nothing and greatly multiply it, which meant he didn't need my money. That was sobering because I thought my place in the kingdom, God, was to be able to fund and gosh, we're given a lot of money and so therefore we must be doing pretty well in kingdom terms and every other term. That wrecked me on one level.
The second one was that I realized that God had 100 % of the boy's heart in John 6, and he had 20 % of mine. I really believed that I owned 80%. And when I came to understand that God owns it all, and that the why for me is to give out a gratitude for the gift of life given me, which forces me to understand the value of that gift and what that gift is, for me it changed everything. And I really went.
into a completely different place in my faith journey and my relationship with God.
JD (08:08)
So fill in some of the gaps of the story. you raise a successful company, you sold it, you have this new found conviction based in scripture and this epiphany, this realization that everything you have belongs to God.
Hk (08:23)
Now, it's a small point.
I actually, as it turns out, never did sell that company. We took the company public. It remains a public control company to this day. But what I did do is, shortly after that, I retired as CEO and became executive chairman and then ultimately moved off into the money management business. we started a fund called Sovereign Capital, which is what I did until just several years ago.
JD (08:50)
And how would you summarize what sovereigns capital does and how does that connect to faith driven movements, how are all these projects connected? Are they rooted in that biblical vision towards generosity or are there other threads connecting them?
Hk (09:04)
Oh, so that's a great question. I don't know. I mean, I think that there are threads of these. So this is all, you know, it comes from my trying to know God and try to be just to do what I think he's shown me. I'm an entrepreneur at heart and whether it was working on Wall Street or then starting together with David Morgan Bandwidth or Republic Wireless, some of the other things I've been involved with, I really feel that God has made these things clear to me. So the thread should be faith in God showing me things.
But maybe more helpful is, as David and I ran bandwidth, we realized that we had the ability to be a running a company where we felt great freedom of talking about why we did what we did and have things like chaplaincy and a pray with our employees in Jesus's name. Most of our employees are not Christians, but we felt a lot of freedom on that
At any rate, eight years in, we're looking at the different types of initiatives we had placed at bandwidth and talked to other Christian entrepreneurs that we met. And they didn't feel the same type of freedom that we did in having those initiatives, talking about our faith, praying, chaplaincy and things like that. And the reason that they cited
which is not a great answer because it is possible to do this when you have outside venture capital. They're like, you know, we really don't know that we feel completely comfortable. You know, we've got a number of secular people who are on our board and praying before board meetings is not, I don't really know. We don't want to be offensive. then, you most of our employees aren't pleased and we don't want to be offensive there either.
And so Sovereign Capital was started to be a fund to invest in faith driven entrepreneurs, believing that if we were the capital partner and could come alongside them and help them on things like customer acquisition costs, lifetime value, intellectual property, channels to market financing, all of those things, we could use the experience that Guy had taught us at Bandway to help them to succeed. But we might also be able to ask them questions like,
How do you think about the biblical message of generosity? How do you think about discipleship and accountability? Is it appropriate at this company or not? It needs to be led by the entrepreneur, but is it appropriate or not to have things like chaplaincy? And so that's why sovereigns capital was started, believing that a fund that invested in companies like that might succeed in every measure spiritually and then also financially might succeed not at the expense of biblical values, but because of them.
And that's what we set out to prove 13 years ago. And through the grace of God, and a number of top quartile funds, that's happened. And, and, and sovereigns has made investment in well more than 200 companies.
we had a problem. Yeah, great.
JD (11:42)
Real quick on sovereigns,
about a billion dollars under of assets under management. that right in terms of across all the funds and then, wow. And then across many different countries, right? You're mentioning 45 professionals working at sovereigns, but then you have a lot of investments happening in also under capitalized regions, right? I was listening to a podcast of years about, investments in Nigeria and in Kenya.
Hk (11:49)
Yes.
JD (12:07)
that you've been attuned.
Hk (12:07)
sovereigns doesn't invest in Nigeria or Kenya. I invest out of our family office and our foundation. We invest there, but sovereigns just invest in, the United States and Indonesia and Singapore. There was an outline investment that we made in Nepal that worked out extraordinarily well through God's grace. But, it's, but, sovereigns doesn't yet invest in Africa and may never,
but I'm a huge believer of investing in Africa and I'd love to explore that with you on this on this episode
JD (12:38)
Let's get into that, but I interrupted you. were, you were right.
Hk (12:42)
Well, I just did a bridge to a fate driven entrepreneur and a fate driven investor.
So, know, four years in, two years, for the first two years, we didn't have great deal flow. But then the word got out that there's this fund that invests in Christian Light companies. And then we had great deal flow. And it kind of came to head. We were saying no to 98 or 99 companies that came to us for financing. It's wrong stage, wrong industry, wrong geography. just, our investing team just didn't know it well enough.
And so I kind of came to head with this guy called me up and said, I'd like for you to invest in my company. And I said, tell me about it. I said, well, we're a real estate company and we're Moldova. Like, oh my goodness, it's going to be the easiest know ever. can't even calculate a cap rate.
And the guy was really patient, named Anatole Molantse. And I give him credit for being a co-founder of the faith-driven entrepreneur movement. And he's like, okay, so I get, you can't invest, but will you please spend time with me to help me to answer some of the questions I've been asking God and asking myself, like, can I have a non-believing partner? And what does it look like to, know, balance ambition with what I've got in front of me and all those different things.
I remember feeling I don't have time for this, but really got convicted by the Holy Spirit. I believe that I needed to make time. And so we put together a Skype call. This is how long ago it was. And we spent an hour and 15 minutes and I took the notes that I used to prepare for that call. And, I put up on a website called a fate driven entrepreneur. And then I'd always wanted to do a podcast. And so we did the fate driven entrepreneur podcast, which continues to this day. did the first 300 or so episodes with.
William Orville and Rusty Roof and ultimately as it turns out, it's a lot of episodes. And we've got a great team that does that now. And so don't need to be as directly involved, but yes, that's the fate driven part. And so the common thread there is as an entrepreneur, seeing opportunity and trying to reach it. through God's great, we get to do so much more scale at fate driven. So at fate driven, now our content is...
JD (14:16)
It's a lot of lot of episodes. Yeah.
Hk (14:41)
Is access in the newsletters and the videos we do we've done more than 115 mini documentaries They are viewed now by more than 200 000 faith-driven entrepreneurs in 138 countries 25 000 of which have gone through an eight week small Group curriculum And we do content and small group series and we've done them with jd greer and chip ingraham and tim keller before he passed away and um, and it's great because we can serve every christian entrepreneur
regardless of their stage, industry or geography.
JD (15:14)
And recently you've launched solving the world's greatest problems. Was that something that was born out of a need to leverage some of the capital of figure and investors who wanted to give money away productively or what's sort of the origin story? And, for those who aren't as familiar, the, the rundown of solving the world's greatest problems and what, what that's doing.
Hk (15:35)
But I've been fascinated by this concept of Christ flowers giving well for a long time. And I've always wanted to do that because I think that with entrepreneurs and investors, the spirit of mammon is a real deal. mean, there's a reason why in the Greek translation of the New Testament, mammon is.
Captain Aramaic, it's a proper name. But instead of corrupting us, investing in God's kingdom or giving it, it can then turn around.
and defeat the enemy and allow God's kingdom to grow. But that's a massive tension
So if we don't take money on and look at it and try to figure out how do we do that really well, I think we will have missed an incredible opportunity. So we thought about naming a new ministry called Faith Driven Giving. And as we thought about more and more, we thought, well, know, when God looks at us, he's not like, well, here's your giving pocket and here's your investment pocket. So it's kind of, you know, God puts on us, our heart, a problem to be solved.
And then we have an opportunity to build toward solving that problem. That's what entrepreneurs do. We have an opportunity to invest towards solving that problem. That's what investors do. And we have an opportunity to give. But that B-I-G, conveniently in an acronym, big, right? I love a good acronym, is a comprehensive type of strategy to solve problems. And that's really what we are. had the Garden of Eden,
because of our sinfulness, we're taken out of the Garden of Eden, we wanna get back there, but we also wanna kind of build toward a new Jerusalem based on your theology and whether you're a big follower of NT Wright or not, or just how you think about things. But we were made to flourish, be fruitful and multiply and take dominion over all things. And in the process of doing that, we co-create with God, right, to solve problems. You can't have a new Jerusalem with problems. You can't return it to the Garden.
of Eden if there are problems out there. And so while solving the world's greatest problem sounds like incredibly ambitious and if not arrogant name, it's what we're doing. And we're doing it under God's power for His glory. And it lends itself well to being able to ask somebody like, what's your problem?
It may be for somebody, creation care, somebody else who might be factory farming, for somebody else it might be just material poverty or lack of clean water, discipleship, maybe just evangelism, a whole bunch of different types of things. But the body of Christ needs to acknowledge the fact that there are problems, they need to be solved.
And then we need to get out there and we need to work towards fixing them.
JD (18:22)
I love that. So I have some questions about the problems that are heaviest for you. And at Christians for Impact, we have a framework for thinking through problems that in terms of their importance, how many people they affect and how severely it affects them in terms of how tractable or solvable they are. And then in terms of how neglected they are for, you know, how big the problem is, how many people, how much resources are going towards fixing them. so part of our list of eight is a culmination of a lot of internal discussions.
Hk (18:42)
Yeah.
JD (18:52)
about what are not just really important problems. There's certainly many important problems that Christians get worked up about. but many of these that come to mind when I, when I say this don't seem particularly solvable. you know, Christians have fought over these and culture wars for, for generations. And I'm not sure I'm going to be the voice that, that, that wins someone over. and they're also not very neglected, right? There's so many people tackling these, but that's a bit of how we think about.
problems and I know it's solving the world's greatest problems you have 30 that you list so I'm curious if there are any particular ones here that you think are especially pressing especially maybe important tractable neglected
Hk (19:28)
Yes.
We think that the most important thing about solving the world's greatest problems isn't necessarily 30 of them or five of them or 60 of them or a hundred of them. We think that the most important thing is at Christ's Father getting on their knees and asking God to place whatever problem and it could be in any taxonomy, but to make that clear and then give them the strength and the power to be able to work towards solving that problem under God's power for his glory.
with and for our joy as we co-create with God. for us to even have a taxonomy of 30, which were informed partially by Praxis, partially by National Christian Foundation, partially from our own experience, it's an imperfect thing. But we wanted to be able to have a place, a start for different communities to develop around those 30, because again, we believe that community is important. And so we wanted to hit the ground running with things that people can kind of latch onto.
For me though, it's about job creation. I believe that we're created in the image of a God who works six out of seven days. And according to the gospel of John, his work continues to this day. So believing of course in Amago Dei and the creation mandate that we mentioned before.
being fruitful and multiplying and taking dominion over all of things that every human being on earth has been created to be a mini entrepreneur of sorts. That doesn't mean that we should have 8 billion entrepreneurs. Not at all. Many of us, maybe the majority of us need to be great team members in different companies. And yet we need to be entrepreneurial in our work, looking to solve problems in our work. So giving somebody a job.
knowing that we're creating the image of a God who worked, I think is incredibly important. And I think that when you see places where jobs, either a job has been forced on you or jobs are not available, that's a massive problem. So what does that mean jobs forced on you? Well, of course there's slavery, that's job being forced on you. But you know what job is forced on you too, when you just got to put food on your table and just like, there are a whole bunch of different things I'd love to do to be fruitful and multiplying.
but I've got to put food on my table every single day and I have no time or effort, no surplus energy, resources or anything like that to be involved as an employee of something or as an entrepreneur, let alone be an entrepreneur. If I can't just get basic sustenance. so somebody is not living into their mago day. If they're just staying just barely ahead of starvation, obviously not if they're in slavery. And so I think that the problem I want to be involved in solving for
JD (22:07)
Mm. Mm.
Hk (22:13)
is investing in the marketplace, it's job skills and technical training, it's being able to provide capacity for faith-driven entrepreneurs. And then communities for faith-driven entrepreneurs get together to encourage and challenge each other in solving problems. That's the one, that's my number one.
JD (22:28)
Nice. So what I hear you saying is that solving the world's greatest problems and the faith driven movement aren't so much in the business of ranking problems, but you want to create intentional communities of Christians, of people who are tackling those problems to collaborate, to, to start things, to invest, to give and to do so for the glory of God. Got it. That's helpful. And you personally feel called to entrepreneurship and job creation and helping grant dignity through, empowering people to do what God made them to do.
Hk (22:41)
Yes.
Yes.
JD (22:58)
not just in the US, but all around the world and all throughout Africa. For me, a big problem is global poverty, just this year numbers of it. You have 650 million people living on roughly $2 a day. And the impacts of that are staggering on so many dimensions. These aren't just numbers on a spreadsheet, but these are really, really hard trade-offs being made between putting your kids in school versus providing food on the table versus providing
healthcare for, uh, for your family and, choosing the kind of career that, that is life giving, um, work is a huge part of life. We talk about that all the time at Christians for impact is 80,000 hours, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year for 40 years of your life. If you have to do something, um, to, to earn enough money just so that your kid can go to high school, right. Um, that might not be, uh, the greatest calling that God has for you in, in terms of self fulfillment.
Um, but that might be just what you have to do to provide for your family. And many people are in that situation, but, um, yeah, I'd love to talk a bit more about, um, investing for job growth in Africa and some of the opportunities that you're seeing here. listened to a podcast with, um, um, with faith driven, uh, faith driven entrepreneur, where you're talking about various different funds for, um, for this. And these are impact funds for undercapitalized, uh, Chris, my understanding was under capitalized Christian businesses.
in African countries, whether Nigeria or Kenya.
there were about six that you mentioned. But share a bit about that and what you're seeing there.
Hk (24:30)
yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I'm incredibly encouraged by the number of great investment funds led by Christ followers in Africa. But now I think about Kaleo. Kaleo is one of my all time favorites because they invest in fate driven entrepreneurs in sub-Saharan Africa and they've done really well. They make a high volume of investments, 40 or 50 a year, which
provides that much more opportunity for those entrepreneurs to get together and community and join faith driven entrepreneur groups and wrestle with money and ambition and all those things. I love, love Kaleo, but I also love Future Africa and Ventures Platform. I love Aruba Capital. think the Sahel Capital is doing great stuff in agriculture. I think, I think about Sango, know, Richard O'Kello was a partner at Bridgewater with Ray Dalio, thought of by many as one of the most brilliant investors of all time.
Then was it McKenna capital people coming out of the Stanford endowment felt called to go back to Africa where he runs a great fund with his partner, Charles, who happens to be a pastor. And they've got a well over a billion dollars of assets in our management with a great track record and great spiritual integration and how they think about their vocation and investing in lifting people out of poverty. And there, there's just a ton. I mean, you've got sod and tree of life in South Africa.
And there's just, there's a large list. This is where I'm going to get a number of emails from other people that I know I'm friends with and I left them out of the list. I got to be really careful. But, let me just say that I've been really encouraged by how many people in Africa are investing and investing well. And that's extremely important to know that there's that potential. as you know, 80 % of the world's poor are going to be in Africa by 2030. That's the economist.
that has said that they also said that 0.5 % of the world's private equity and venture capital are going into Africa this year. Despite unbelievable, despite nine of the 20 fastest growing countries in the world being in Africa. So it's not like it's just, wow, that's awful. And we know, gosh, we got to be confronted with it. mean, there's incredible opportunity in Africa.
JD (26:29)
Wow, what a jarring contrast. Yeah.
Hk (26:46)
a young population of producers and consumers coming into the marketplace and just a lot of demographic data that would show that Africa is a great investment opportunity. But, you know, again, 80 % versus 0.5%. That ratio has got to be different for Christ followers. And I've got to be really careful about being prescriptive or presumptuous. Again, the most important thing.
JD (27:06)
Right. Cause you don't, you don't
want to say that everybody should invest in Africa or in these under-capitalized regions, but you do want to say there's an opportunity here and that
Hk (27:14)
Well, do want to say
it. I shouldn't say it. It's not right. What I should say is everybody should ask God about how to store the capital he's entrusted them with and knowing full well again that the answer for some people might be to invest in solar farms in the Nevada desert. If the body of Christ, you know, I've heard guests on this show, you know, say, gosh, if we just, everybody just kind of gave 2 % to the world's poor poverty would be ended. think that that's, I think that's.
very convicting and very achievable. Exactly. Indeed. I thought that was a great episode. here's something I absolutely believe, that if every Christian got down on their knees and asked God how to steward the vocation and the financial resources that God has given them, poverty would be over. Satan would be defeated and we'd all live happy forever after.
JD (27:46)
think that was Paul Niehaus sharing his back of the envelope estimate. Yeah.
Hk (28:11)
But that is really important. If the faith driven investment movement just challenges people in light of what they've learned in the world to then pray through that and say, God lead me in that direction. I do think that as people see the opportunity in Africa and understand 80 % and know that only 0.5 % that my hope is that God would help some number of those people to say, that's not going to be my ratio. In other words, that Delta of 160 X
80 to 0.5. I'm going to invest more money. I'm going to look at my overall financial allocation and my investments in my giving. And I'm going to have that percentage more mirror where the world's poor are. If indeed I'm eager to take care of the poor, which is really
JD (29:01)
Which is something that Paul writes
so much about. I'd love to talk a bit about the opportunity here and also the biblical challenge for caring for the poor through this kind of investing. You've talked about our investing as something that we will have to give an account of to God. It's not just what did we say or how we act day to day, but what we do with our money. And part of that is our investing.
Hk (29:18)
Yes.
I do believe in them.
JD (29:29)
you've written about in faith driven investing about how you'll have to give an account to God about what you did to help the lease of these with your funds. How does impact investing in Africa connect with that? mean, maybe I'm bearing the lead here, but do you want to speak more to that?
Hk (29:46)
Well, yeah, I definitely do. so, again, I'm not a theologian. A lot of this, and when we wrote the book, Faith Driven Investor, which has some great co-authors, Tim Keller wrote a great chapter and a whole bunch of really neat cast of folks that were able to participate and contribute to that book. But a lot of it's really how I wrestle with these things. I don't wanna preach and I don't wanna say that these are all the different things that Christ commands us to do other than,
that I believe that we are meant to get involved in God's word. And in the process of doing that, many of us will feel the clear conviction of taking care of the poor because there's so much in the Bible about it, just like there's so much in the Bible about money. And I also think that God takes us on a journey where some things in scripture jump out at us in ways they haven't before.
JD (30:41)
But isn't there something we can be prescriptive about here where the voice of the New Testament is pretty unequivocal about taking care of the poor, about caring for the least of these marginalized. And when we look at objectively how people are doing around the world, you know,
Hk (30:53)
Yes, I think we can.
But if
you're prescriptive, I think that the way that God designed us, it may backfire. And I think that the one thing for us to be prescriptive about is being in God's word, get down on your knees, knowing that God through his word and through prayer will speak to you. that when, know, there are podcasts, by the way, I'll say it again, Christian for Impact is awesome. And yet,
the things that have really impacted me the most of my spiritual journey are the boy in John six and then most recent link relations to 10. And so if I hear on a podcast, this is what you have to do. You need to do Christ commands you to do these things as an entrepreneur, at least an entrepreneur has had this weird type of power control dynamic. They don't like being told what to do. That's really challenging. But I think that you can suggest, and this is kind of like a verbal jujitsu. You can get
somebody to say you got to take care of the poor by saying you got to take, spend time in God's word, because there's so much in God's word about taking care of the poor. So we don't need to have to say that. It just spend time in God's word. And these are some of the things that I've taken from it in the way he's spoken to me and some of the things he's spoken to you JD about in the same. And so that's our, my hope is you hear this podcast right now is like, look, Galatians 2.10 may jump at you in the same way it did me, but it may be something else.
And yes, I do believe with so much passages in the Bible about money and taking the poor that the statistics are really high, that God will speak to you somehow. And that will be a personal thing where you feel called and convicted by God. Yeah, I'll leave it at that.
JD (32:42)
One last thing on this. Do you think there is some under discussed opportunity here within Christian spaces, including Christians who talk about caring for the poor, about caring for the global poor, right? You have this huge inequity between even comparatively what it means to be poor in the U S you're still in the top 90th percentile or so of global standards.
Hk (32:56)
Yes!
100%, I
do, I do. And I think to be clear, I'm saying things to be semi-controversial about just turning people back to God's word, but I think there's incredible utility in people discussing it. And you've done such a great job on the podcast and we're gonna wade into it a little bit now. The way that I read from scripture is that I need to love God with all my heart, soul, strength, soul and strength, and to love my neighbor as myself. And so what does that mean?
The best passage I think we have, or the passage that's impacted me the most on what my neighbor is, is of course is the parable of the Good Samaritan, where we learn a couple things. One is that it's who we encounter. So that's one. Two is that that person could very well be from a different nation. And that's really, really important. And I think of myself as primarily a citizen in God's
And I think about my, I think that when I think about what our forebears did in the 1800s and just going to a place like Africa and bringing, yes, of course, churches, but then schools and hospitals. But as a result, that 750 million people believing in Jesus. And they're my brothers and sisters. I believe that they are absolutely my neighbor. And when I look at the poverty that they're in, I think that it is that I am convicted by that.
And I think that,
JD (34:29)
But you haven't
physically encountered 750 million people across the globe, right? So when you say encounter, you mean more people that you can affect people that you are connected to in some sense by living in the same world at the same time in this globally interconnected age.
Hk (34:43)
Yes,
and they are my brothers and sisters in faith. it'd be an interesting thing, I'd like to get your take on this. Are they more my neighbor? Are they more the person to take care of than the person next door to me who does not yet share my faith? I think that, I don't know, what's your take on that?
JD (35:04)
I think what it means to be a neighbor in our modern age is so global, so broad that, yeah, I think I probably do have a greater duty to somebody dying of malaria across the ocean than I do to my neighbor, next door neighbor whose needs are perfectly, more or less taken care of. they have, everybody has needs, right? But we know Thomas Aquinas writes about how the needs of somebody who's quite physically distant from us.
or relationally distant from us, if they are severe enough, they can overtake the priority of providing for people, even in our own neighborhood, who have modest needs. Maybe they need someone to walk their dog, or they need somebody to say hi to them. know, both are important, right? And both are your neighbor. I don't think we want to say that people in our own communities are not our neighbor.
Hk (35:52)
Yes, and I think though I think that I think that there is uh, and I i'm not finding the scripture right now right off the top of my head I do think that there's scriptural precedent and maybe some of your listeners will be able to comment back in about taking care of the body believers first And not the exception and balancing those things but it may be somebody says no I I think that we absolutely have an opportunity to take care, uh the poor and
JD (35:52)
So yeah, I'd want to say both hands.
Hk (36:20)
And if not for their benefit, it's for ours, believing that as we do so, we're loving on Jesus and that we can have a hopeful expectancy that by being involved in poverty alleviation and bringing about God's kingdom, that we can experience his joy. And that can be a healthy, selfish ambition. And that type of participation and being used by God, storing his resources will ultimately bring us more joy.
and therefore be better for us as well.
JD (36:55)
Do you have thoughts, it's okay if not, but do you have thoughts about the millions of Christians who'd be affected by, for instance, the PEPFAR freeze and the pausing of HIV retrovirals with the recent USAID freeze? I know you're not a fan of everything USAID, there are many, some estimates say millions of lives at stake with the recent freeze. Do you have thoughts on that?
Hk (37:09)
Yes.
I'm extraordinarily concerned about people losing their lives because of administration change. I also am extremely concerned about inefficient and ineffective programming that might happen. If I was, I think it's safe to say that I would have done things differently, but it's really easy for me to lob in criticism when I'm actually not in the arena in the government. So yes, I'm extraordinarily concerned about the repeal of different programs and people ending up dying.
but I can also say that I think that I get really excited about working on initiatives that make Jesus famous. I am an American citizen and I'm a proud American citizen, but I'm a citizen of God's church first. And ultimately when I'm working with somebody, I don't wanna give them just a cup of cold water in Uncle Sam's name. I wanna give it to them in Jesus' name. And so what I wanna do is I wanna be more focused on what we can do as the body of Christ.
And in this vacuum in which the U S government is not doing as much as they once did it through and we'll just say a difficult transition. This is an incredible opportunity for the body of Christ to step up and get involved in drastically increase our participation overseas.
This is an incredible opportunity for us to step up.
JD (38:39)
I want to be conscious of time, but I love to close the episode with 10 minutes of one minute rapid fire question answers. Is that okay? Sounds good. And a lot of these questions I'm getting from, from listeners. so they might be a little all over the place. I'll try to keep it on theme, but there's a mix of maybe more technical questions about impact investing and entrepreneurship with spiritual questions, with movement questions.
Hk (38:48)
Bring him.
JD (39:08)
So I'll start out with a question about movements and ecumenism. Henry, how do you think about working with non-evangelical groups like Catholic groups or other Christian denominations or other religious groups who are promoting, we might say, redemptive kingdom causes, right? Like caring for the poor and the sick, but maybe not in the same evangelical vein that you find yourself in.
Hk (39:29)
Wow, I say this is rapid fire around. All right, so I'm gonna try to my answer list on 45 seconds. Let me just start off by saying that I'm so delighted that my middle son goes to the University of Notre Dame and his ability to encounter Jesus in a new and profound way with other Catholic believers and I feel that's awesome. So doing work with Catholics is something that I love doing. And there's so many different denominations in the world. Now, I do feel differently about
supporting causes that are more secular in nature, because I think that the greatest gift we can give somebody is the knowledge that there's a God of the universe who loves them. Now, so then it all depends, right? If you go into a place where people do not yet know that Jesus loves them, then I wanna hand out the cup of cold water in Christ's name. If you go to a place where they're abundantly clear that God loves them,
and they love Jesus, and in fact, they're a blessing to you in their faith, because in the words of Brian Fickett, they don't suffer from an evangelical narcissism and a separation of secular and spiritual. I think you can absolutely work with a secular aid organization to help the body of believers with deworming or any one of a whole bunch of different interventions, right? They already know the gospel. In many cases, again, they're a credible encouragement to me in my own faith. So do I have to evangelize to the evangelized?
If there's something that's much more effective in eradicating Guinea worms or giving malaria nets, I don't think so. And yet, I don't think that if you go to a community that doesn't yet know Jesus and you just say, here's the malaria nets and here are all the other things.
JD (41:11)
what I hear you saying is that effective aid can be something that Christians can get behind, whether it's explicitly Christian or not, but that doesn't replace the need for evangelism, for sharing about Jesus. And at times you might want to do both. You might want to fund really effective malaria net distribution and also maybe in a different way, if possible, combine them in, you know, merge effectiveness, but you might want to do both and also fund missions, right?
Hk (41:37)
Yes, that was my first assistant.
JD (41:39)
Right. Okay. No, that's helpful. a recent graduate at Cambridge, he asks, how can impact investing make disciples, whether directly or as a byproduct of kingdom investment?
Hk (41:49)
You make disciples when you're in relationship with people. Always be ready to share the reason for the hope we have with gentleness and respect in that Kenotes relationship. When you're working with somebody on job skills and training and getting to know a person and their story and sharing your own, you're in relationship and that's where the gospel gets spread. When people can hear about somebody's encounter with Jesus and endeavor to have the same, that's where evangelism happens in impact investing, I believe.
And when somebody says like, so why are you spending time with me in Moldova or Tajikistan or whatever? Well, my Christian faith is I experienced God most fully when I'm out here helping other people. That's a great witness and testimony.
JD (42:30)
Nice. Dominic asks for impact investing for everyday Christians. what are one to two top steps that quote unquote normal Christians who only have limited amounts of time to carefully consider impact investment strategies can take. I'm guessing, you know, maybe they have, you know, maybe this is like tens of thousands that they can invest. but maybe aren't like an accredited investor or high net worth individual.
Hk (42:55)
There's an organization called the Impact Foundation that does a great job in working with smaller investors. And especially they're the world's experts at working with donor-advised fund money. So think about philanthropic capital and getting that into meaningful impact investing. A lot of the very best impact investing happens in private equity and venture capital funds where the minimums can be high and the lockups can be pretty extensive. A lot of these are 10-year funds. There's some funds like Talentin where the lockup is
only three or four years and maybe the minimum might be a little bit lower, but the Impact Foundation is a organization to contact. And then they've got a whole inventory of different impact investments where you can get into at a lower minimum.
JD (43:37)
Nice, nice.
Hk (43:38)
And then there's also lists on the fate driven investing website. And there's a list of many on the solving the world's greatest problems website, but the impact foundation is really an expert in this space.
JD (43:47)
So let's say I have a few hundred thousand dollars sitting in a DAF. I can either invest this further, maybe in an impact fund, I guess there's many different options, but let's just say an impact fund, or I could give it right away. How good would the nonprofit have to
Hk (44:03)
Yeah. And that balance is important.
That balance is important. Let's be mindful of the fact. And this is the thing I struggle with immensely. I absolutely believe in the world of impact investing and faith driven investing. But if I do that at the expense of giving when I could have done, when I could have given, that's a challenge. And it's back to the Lord of the Rings. It's the ring not being around my finger as if my money's in a taxable account.
JD (44:23)
Right.
Hk (44:29)
but it's in proximity to my heart because it's gonna ring around my neck as it was with Frodo, which means that I haven't really gotten it off my balance sheet. And that's a big challenge. Money in my own personal foundation. That's right. If you have control over it, even a donor-revised fund. So theoretically, the National Christian Foundation or somebody else like that has control over it, but because you really do, the temptation for many of us is to see that money grow and that can happen if we do impact investing.
JD (44:37)
Hmm. Even if it's not in your name, even if it's in a donor advice fund.
Hk (44:58)
And so we had to just be mindful of that. To be clear, impact investing is an absolutely great way to bring dignity rather than dependency. And yet we have to be careful that we don't overweight towards impact investing at the expense of giving as much as we see the need. Does that make sense?
JD (45:15)
Yeah. But, then the question continues, how good would a nonprofit have to be to outweigh impact investing from a, from an impact perspective? Right. Is it, is there, is there a bar and like, where is that bar?
Hk (45:29)
Wow. That's a great, that's a great, that's a great question. as time has gone by, I've, I have seen more and more, impact happen with giving than with broader impact investing. I think that they are, that they are both incredibly important tools, but this is from somebody who helped co-found the fate driven investor movement. It's extraordinarily important to be able to provide capital for fate driven entrepreneurs that are out there.
That's incredibly important. But again, it should not take the place of giving. And in many cases, I think that we'll find that giving will move the needle greater in any type of intervention we're looking for. So is the right mix 20 % fate driven investing, impact investing, and 80 % giving? I don't know, you can't put a number on it, but it's something to think through. And generally, if somebody put a gun to my head and said, you gotta come up with something, I'd say it's absolutely.
more giving than investing.
JD (46:31)
That's helpful. As a follow up to that, was going to ask if you are at all concerned about the risk of moral licensing from impact investing. So I talked to friends who've, I'll share what that is. So I talked to friends who've donated a kidney like anonymously out of, I mean, just because they could, right? And there are people who will die if they don't get a kidney. So, and one thing they talk about is this idea of like,
Hk (46:39)
moral insights.
Wow.
JD (46:55)
they feel the temptation to like view themselves as like a better person who doesn't need to sacrifice for others because they, gave their kidney, right? It's like, you know, what more do you want from me homeless person? Like I gave a kidney to a stranger. it's this kind of more licensing behavior. do you, do you ever wonder if like, that's a temptation for people who, who are impact investing who maybe don't feel the same tug to give because they think they're already, you know, th their money's already going to a good cause.
Hk (47:09)
man.
100%.
Yes, I think that sin is so pervasive in all of our minds and that until Jesus comes back, we're have to wrestle with very real questions just like that. And just like, what I'm doing right now is exacerbating my God complex. Is being on this show with you right now and being interviewed as if I'm a subject matter expert, is this taking me closer to knowing God or further away from God because I'm
build up as a subject matter expert and then all of sudden pride is a bigger issue in my life than it was an hour ago when we started this. I don't know, but if we're not asking ourselves these questions all the time and have a group of friends that can help us hold us accountable, we're in big trouble. But your friends that are giving away their kidneys, it's making me think that I gotta get a better set of friends. But then I don't know that I wanna be friends with you anymore, JD, because I like both of my kidneys. And is that a medicine problem, my heart, too? Probably.
JD (48:20)
So Dominic asks a question about entrepreneurship. So the entrepreneurial life is highly regarded in some circles. can think of like in the Bay, it's like super cool to be an entrepreneur. In other circles, it's like seen as kind of like selfish or self-seeking or like the thought that you would spend 50, 60 hours a week building something instead of being there for a growing family.
Hk (48:37)
Yeah
Yeah.
JD (48:46)
When maybe you could do both, like, know, some circles, there's a lot more social grace for like giving it all as an entrepreneur.
So in which bubbles, geographically or culturally, would you like to see more appreciation for entrepreneurship? And what would it need to make that happen? Like what's holding people back?
Hk (49:03)
Well, Dominic brings up a very important dynamic and that is that the idol of entrepreneurship. and that's a challenge, right? When I grew up in the seventies and eighties in Baltimore, you had to be a rock star or baseball player to make a cultural impact. But now you can, is obviously an entrepreneur. And so people are idolizing that idolizing entrepreneurs is just the way that they used to idolize rock stars. And that's a real issue. And maybe where I live here in Silicon Valley, that's the biggest issue here. I do think that entrepreneurs are a,
that are solving problems that are missionally called are incredibly important in God's kingdom. And I think that that's really important. But I have a bias because of where I live geographically and the way that God has called me uniquely, or maybe not super uniquely, but the way that God's called me. So a bubble you need to be careful of it is in Silicon Valley. There are other places, as you mentioned, where there's a tall poppy syndrome, even people attribute that to say Australia and Canada where
that type of ambition is frowned upon and I'm overly generalizing here, but the word places, the bubbles that really concern me, Dominic are in India and Pakistan where you have these vestiges of the caste system that infiltrate the U S I'm sorry that infiltrate the church over there where the highest and best use if you're Christian as being a pastor or missionary in business is dirty. Now to be clear in a lot of economies and around the world,
there's a lot more bribery and corruption and the temptations to do business poorly are much more significant. But when we throw away entrepreneurship by thinking that's beneath a Christian, that I think is a massive issue. And so I love working with a younger generation to give them an alternate imagination of what entrepreneurship looks like in a way that's steeped in a relationship with God and a calling from God that tackles things like the biblical message of generosity. But yeah.
JD (50:37)
Mm.
Hk (51:00)
That's a big deal for me, is to give a new generation of Christ followers and an alternate vision for what the marketplace looks like so that people can see this as a great career and a way to know and honor God seven days a week and really be used by Him to solve the world's greatest problems.
JD (51:15)
Hmm. Hmm. Okay. In trouble if I don't ask this question, and this is a question about, the true impact of impact investing. I'll put my devil's advocate hat on and hope you'll forgive me. but there's this idea that for impact investing to be impactful, it needs to have some enterprise impact that the business doesn't just need to return an immediate financial return, but there needs to be some kingdom or social return on top. And then there also needs to be additionality. So it needs to be the case that
on the margin or the one more person, maybe you are that person can invest and that additional investment is part of that impact. And I think the critique goes something like this. I won't go too in detail because this can get quite complicated, but in publicly traded companies, it does seem like they're very liquid and the market is close to perfectly efficient. And so if you were to divest from say a sin stock, that would almost immediately be filled by someone who's kind of neutral.
to the social aspects of the stocks. so realistically, the long-term prices don't change. The stocks are still capitalized the same. So that would draw questions on the impact of impact investing, at least for large publicly traded equities. It seems like a different case if you're dealing with like, you know, under capitalized markets or like overlooked really
promising Kenyan Christian entrepreneurs, right? But how would you, guess in like a few dimensions as possible answer that in a minute or two?
Hk (52:48)
There's an excellent chance that I didn't understand your question or the illustration well enough, but I can tell you that if the body of Christ understands that every time we invest a dollar, we're effectively making an impact. Every investment makes an impact. If the body of Christ can realize that and understand that and does not have any tolerance for investing in something that provides abortifacients or invest in algorithms and social media that can
completely manipulate young men and women on dating apps or fill in the blanks. That if the body of Christ says we're not going to buy those, then the net impact of those people selling those stocks and not having a smaller universe of people that are willing to buy them, I think does make, I think does make a, does make a real statement. Now somebody else come in and say, well, okay, those sin stocks are undervalued. And so therefore we're to go ahead and buy them. I don't, I don't, I don't know that that's, I don't, I think that that
that may be an issue, but I think that winning the public square by helping to identify where people have real issues with maybe a company that is participating in apartheid, I think there's a long track record of minority investors becoming, voting their proxy and then advocating for change on the inside that has had an incredible impact on changing the way that.
JD (54:15)
more shareholder capitalism type approaches.
So do you think most of the impact is in that kind of shareholder
Hk (54:20)
and banking the whole thing is,
I'm sorry to interrupt, but the other thing is is that, know, as we started the program, is that if you believe that we're gonna have an accounting for what we had done with all the guys given us when we get up there, I think it's a pretty lame excuse if you do, right? But it is pretty lame excuse like everybody else is doing it. Like it really matter. God, I mean, I know you gave me this money to steward, but it seemed to make sense for me to invest in match.com or in somebody that invest in.
or boredom facings or something else that's bad because, know, really, God, I mean, does it really matter if somebody else is gonna buy the stock? And so I could make more money. I don't think God's gonna go for that for a second. But I'm overstepping my theological bounds there. now, know, Christians are working at Match.com, have all sorts of different issues, but I will tell you that when I think about the way that dating apps are set up to be able to...
JD (55:01)
That's helpful.
Hk (55:13)
try to incentivize you to spend more money on their platform versus what they say they're going to do, which is to try to help you find your match for life. That's a massive issue that is really overlooked. A lot of things like abortifacients, people know to not do that. But some of the other things are really nefarious and they really, they really.
JD (55:31)
We're wrapping up here. So Stephen asks, a lot of these Christian business, faith, impact movements have come and go in different incarnations. What historical movements do you look to for inspiration and what lessons have you drawn?
Hk (55:45)
Revivals.
man, I love her. Is there a better movement than a revival?
any type of revival is a great movement of God. I mean, I think about the Hebrides revival. I think about the Asbury revival. I think about the revival that happened in Southern California in the 1970s in the Jesus movement. And I think that it bodes well for us all to study them and how they started. And the definitely the case with.
the Asbury one and definitely the case with the Asbury, I'm sorry, the Hebrides revival. It started in the confession of sin. So maybe we end the podcast the way we began it. The world's greatest problem is me, it's my sin. And I learned about this through Nikki Gumbel in the Bible One year app that I love. And he looked at this in one of his devotionals about the history of revivals and there was a group of young people in a barn in the Hebrides that had been praying for revival.
but then had spent time in God's word and saying, you you can't approach the mountain if you don't have clean hands and an impure heart. So instead they prayed, God show us where we have dirty hands and an impure heart. And he did, they confessed their sin and then revival started in the Hebrides. And the Asbury, it happened when a senior student at Asbury got up at the end of a service and confessed the sin how he had wronged a brother in Christ. And that's what started the revival.
And I think it really is just understanding that we are sinful fallen people in need of a savior. And then having an encounter with that savior, expecting that encounter of course to change everything. And then just wanting to live a life where we have just intimacy with that savior and wanting to make this world, you know, to advance God's kingdom under his power and for his glory.
JD (57:28)
Nice, nice. We didn't get to talk much about career advice,
Well, thanks so much for coming on Henry. And we'd love to give you a moment just to share any specific links or plugs that you'd like to share.
Hk (57:39)
yeah. So here's my plug. Christians for Impact. It's a podcast. You've listened to it. There are so many great episodes. This is a movement of God. This is a movement of God. As you are listening to this, don't think of yourself as a consumer. Think of this as being your movement. The type of subjects that JD talks about every other week with with different guests are with present company excluded important.
and they need to be shared, but it needs to be your movement. And you need to find out where you participate in it. Rather than just being a consumer, you need to share it with friends. And I'd start by sharing this podcast, not this episode of podcast, but this broad podcast. know, Colin Aiken was a fantastic, Nick Laing, I sent it to my three boys who were 19, 21 and 23. His joy is just, is dynamic. And then you've got, you know, you've got some great academic minds. You've, you know, you think about Jason Dykstra.
JD (58:18)
you
Hk (58:35)
who has a different type of personality than, than a Nick Laing. And yet he's really speaks to the cerebral part in all of us. And then you go back to Paul Niehaus from, from give directly. These are, these are ideas, know, Ted.com is the, they say ideas worth sharing. The ideas presented on this podcast, I think are ideas worth sharing. And the role you can play in helping to build a movement is by commenting on this podcast and sharing it with others. Just don't be consumer.
JD (59:05)
You honor us, Henry. Thanks so much. yeah, looking forward to seeing you around in DC and being a part of Faith Driven in the future. So thanks so much for coming on.
Hk (59:14)
What a treat. JD, thank you for having me.
