Caroline Oliveira (part 1): Tackling Factory Farming as a Christian Fundraiser
Summary:
In this episode, we speak to Caroline Oliveira, the Finance and Development Director at Sinergia Animal, one of the world’s top-rated animal charities. Caroline shares her journey from a corporate career at Nestlé to becoming a leading advocate and fundraiser for animal welfare.
Some things we touch on in this episode:
The suffering of factory-farmed animals and how Sinergia Animal addresses it.
The cost-effectiveness metrics used for Sinergia’s programs, such as improving conditions for 53 hens or replacing three animal-based meals per dollar.
Caroline’s faith journey and how her Christian values led her to align her career with her beliefs.
The shift from corporate to advocacy and Caroline’s transition from Nestlé to Sinergia Animal.
Journeying towards vegetarianism and veganism, as well as challenges along the way.
Insights into nonprofit fundraising and how to support impactful causes.
Stories, scriptures, and reports discussed in this episode:
Balaam’s Donkey — Numbers 22:21-39, the story of how God used a donkey to speak and reveal divine will.
The Adulterous Woman — John 8:6-9, a lesson in compassion and judgment, as Jesus confronts hypocrisy.
God’s Provision of Food for Moses and the Israelites — Exodus 16:4-28, the account of manna in the wilderness, showcasing God’s care for His people.
Herbs and Plants in Eden — Genesis 1:29, highlighting God’s provision of plant-based sustenance for all creation.
Saving a Sheep on the Sabbath — Matthew 12:11, Jesus’ teaching on mercy and the value of animals.
Animal Charity Evaluators Sinergia Animal Report 2024 — A detailed analysis of Sinergia Animal’s impact and cost-effectiveness in advancing animal welfare.
Episode Highlights:
A Nonprofit Career in Animal Welfare
“We started in 2017, just two to four activists doing the work. It was a very small organization, and it was the only one back then, one of the only ones in our country doing the work dedicated to the global south. So this is something that we always say, we are very bold because we were willing to make institutional change when we were really small. So we started small, but we had huge ambition, huge boldness, and it ended up working well for us.”
The Power of Pressure Campaigns and Public Demonstration
“So we work with pressure campaigns. We work facing our antagonists, somehow the industry, and asking and demanding from them the changes that we want to see, better standards in welfare for animals. And we do this with the strategy of naming and shaming, really. We go public with it, we take the issues to the streets and to social media, and that’s part of our strategy.”
“We go to the streets, we have our signs, and we make demonstrations. We take pictures and we shame and we name the companies. Sometimes we do some puns on their names or their logos at the moment, just to make it more creative and attention-grabbing. It’s an important part of our work because, when you put these companies in front of the public, it adds pressure to make the changes we are asking for.”
Undercover Investigations and Exposing the Truth
“We use those images in our papers to campaign and to demonstrate what happens to the animals in factory farming in our countries. In the beginning, that was something that was always important to us because our founder, Carolina, she came from investigations. That's how she became vegan, an advocate, and then created Sinergia years later. It was really key to opening people’s eyes about the reality.”
Tackling Lower Animal Welfare Standards in the Global South
“The standards that many of these industries apply in global south countries are way lower than those that they apply in Europe or in North America, for example. And that's because our laws are still more permissive. There's still less people caring or knowing about the situation of animals exploited for food. So our work is really needed here.”
Sinergia’s Impact on Animal Welfare
“Up to date, we’ve secured hundreds of these kinds of commitments to enact change for animals. I think last year, it was 113 million animals. Yes, 113 million animals were positively impacted through our work. It's a huge number, and it shows how big the problem is and how much work there is still to do.”
A Call for Global South Advocacy
“Doing this in the countries where we are, because we are focused on the Global South, it’s where we do our work and it’s where we are born... Doing this in the Global South is crucial because as income grows, the consumption and production of animal products grow. If we can influence the animal welfare standards here, we can have a significant impact on global trends and practices.”
Journeying Towards Vegetarianism and Veganism
"For a while, I was pretty skeptical of actually vegetarianism in general, because I didn’t think these things were happening. And then I learned these awful things were. And then for a while, I was pretty skeptical that there’s anything that we could do to tackle what’s happening on farms. I thought the animal industry was just too big and the problem was too complicated. But then I learned through animal charity evaluators that the kinds of campaigns that you’re doing actually do really seem to work."
Faith and Advocacy
"I think that for Christians, it's very important to align our actions with what we believe about God's creation."
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JD (00:00)
Hey, listeners, welcome back. JD here. And this week, we're doing something special. We're talking to Carolini Oliveira. She is the Finance Director and Development Director as well at Sinergia Animal. This is one of the world's top animal charities. What is an animal charity and why should you, as a Christian, who wants to impact the world, care? Well, we'll get into that. We'll get into fundraising careers as well. Carolini spends most of her time fundraising, writing reports, getting information out there for key donors. We talk about that in the second half of the episode. By the way, for this week's episode, I really highly recommend checking out the transcript first because we go all over the place. And if you want to hear more about veganism and why Christians should care about animal charities, I recommend the first half of the episode. If you're interested in how these animal charities work, check out the middle of the episode. And then finally, at the end, if you want to hear about careers and fundraising for any nonprofit check that out, Caroline shares her background and story. She has a bachelor's in business administration and worked for Nestle and other large food corporations for many years before pivoting to Sinergia Animal, which is one of the highest rated animal charities. Animal Charity Evaluators, the best recommender in this space, puts their cost effectiveness in this way. They estimate that their cage-free corporate campaigns affect 53 hens per dollar.
They have an institutional meat reduction program which replaces three animal-based meals for every dollar donated. And their pig welfare program affects 21 mother pigs and 354 piglets for every single dollar. So really massively effective numbers working almost entirely in the global south. And I recommend checking out this episode or sharing it with anybody who's interested in either tackling factory farming or just interested in fundraising careers for a nonprofit. So, Carolini, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.
JD (02:01)
It's a pleasure to have you.
Caroline Oliveira (02:03)
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and to have the opportunity to share a little more about my career and share a little more about Sinergia as well.
JD (02:11)
Yeah, I'm excited. So why don't you take a moment to share a little bit more about yourself, your background and what it is you do now to improve the world.
Caroline Oliveira (02:19)
Okay, so, I'm the Development Director at Sinergia Animal. I've been in the movement and working for Sinergia for almost three years now. Before that, I came from a corporate career. I have a degree in Business Administration and I specialized in international trade. And I spent many years in my career working for profit and for those stakeholders that we don't know who they are.
And at some point when I was working in Nestle, and it's funny, I can bring this up later again, but Nestle is one of our targets in our campaigns today. So I'm on the other side. But when I was there and I learned about the reality of animals exploited for food, not just in our country, but all over the world, that touched me so deeply. First, because I wasn't aware about the horrors of factory farming, but because there was space for me to do something different that I haven't done so far. And working for a company and dedicating all my hours and my time and my talent and whatever I had to bring to make that bigger and to contribute to that, to the expectation of animals or something that I couldn't bear anymore.
So that was when I decided that I needed something, I needed a career that was aligned with my values. And there was so much to learn about animal advocacy. And I think as a response to my prayers to have something, a career around something that meant something to me and that could help me affect change in the world. Was something that came later, but came as a beautiful new mission for me to follow. And that started early in 2022 in Sinergia.
JD (04:17)
Wow, okay, so you were with Nestle, that massive food conglomerate, massive food company globally, and you have a business background, right? So you were helping them with, was it client management or just customer relations or what was it you were doing at Nestle?
Caroline Oliveira (04:21)
Yes.
I did different things, but my last position was to hold the accounts, like the most important accounts that you had, back then in customer service. So we took care of them to make sure that they were buying as much as they could and making the best. So
JD (04:54)
So you were working in the food industry. You now work at a top rated animal charity, Sinergia Animal. And when I think of Sinergia Animal, I think of a couple of things. I think of campaigns to help chickens have better conditions on factory farms, moved from cages to cage-free facilities. I also think of pigs and improving the welfare of pigs on farms. But we'll talk more about Sinergia Animal in a moment.
Walk me through that shift you had where you went from working in the normal or standard food industry at Nestle to caring about animals to working for a top rated animal charity. Was there a moment when you learned about how animals were treated or was this more of like a gradual process? Walk me through that, how that happened.
Caroline Oliveira (05:41)
It was a gradual process. I think it started when I started learning about the realities, the reality of animals expected for food. So I remember that I say among my friends that I was never the angry activist because people like when they are like very early in activism, they are very angry and like meat. Yeah, meat is murder and all of that. I say that I was always the sad activist all the time.
JD (06:01)
Right, like PETA activists on the street.
Caroline Oliveira (06:09)
Because I learned about things and I cried and I cried so much about everything. I remember the video that made me a vegetarian. I started being vegetarian in 2018. It was a video that my mom shared with me of animals very close. Those were pigs and cows, very close to the moment where they're going to die. And they were crying and their eyes were very similar to ours.
So you look at a similar individual that's condemned to death, and then you think like, why? It's not like you don't have a choice and you need them and have to do that to them. And we've been like, away apart from that reality. It's just a matter of our choices and preferences and yeah, cultural roots that go very deep.
JD (07:01)
So was it all in a video that you saw of the execution, the slaughter of pigs? That was the turning point for you?
Caroline Oliveira (07:09)
That was, I remember that day because I saw that video when I was on my way to work and I got to Nestle, I was crying and then like from that day at night I tried to eat like meat, I don't remember precisely what and it tasted like sin, it just wasn't food anymore and I tried to that and I was like okay, yeah, I don't know if that...
JD (07:30)
It tasted like sin? Is that what you said?
Caroline Oliveira (07:35)
That's something that we somehow say in Portuguese, I don't know if that translates well, but it didn't taste like food. It tasted like something that shouldn't be eaten. And then when I tasted that, i was like, this is not for me and this is wrong. At first, I didn't want to share that with anyone because I didn't fully understand what was going on with me. So is this like, shifting this for life? Is this something that I want to be outspoken about or is this a phase?
JD (07:40)
Yes.
Caroline Oliveira (08:04)
what was happening, what do I believe around this? So I took my time quietly to digest what I was feeling and then I started learning more and following all those Instagram pages of other amazing organizations doing the work and some of those things and videos that was...
JD (08:22)
about how animals are treated. You were learning more about the conditions on farms and what it would mean to go vegetarian.
Caroline Oliveira (08:29)
Yeah, and that's the thing. I was having this discussion earlier with this friend and we are talking about how the end of any animal expected in the food industry is death. It's premature death. They don't have a chance to live a full life as they could if they were free. So that's something that we know. And some people don't know that that's the reality too for eggs and dairy, but that is. But the thing is, between the moment that they they are born and they are condemned to death, there's a whole life of suffering, a short and very intense life of suffering. And learning about those realities and what they do to laying hands, what they do to brothers, what happens to baby calves and baby chicks, male chicks, that's devastating. Like that's something that I know why the industry industry keeps so silent about that and why they keep that reality hidden. Many people wouldn't buy it if they knew. But we have still that image, especially in our countries. I know that's not anymore that much of a reality in the North countries, in Europe, in the US. But here, when we talk about animals, we still think a lot of companion animals. So they think of dogs and they think of cats, but they never even if they remember the animals exploited for food, they don't remember that they are intelligent, that they feel bones, that they suffer, they feel, they build connections. They are not considered as beings, they are considered as objects or resources. And that's very sad. So facing all that at once, it was very intense for me. So that's why I was the sad activist. I cried a lot and everywhere I went.
And that's something that's very similar to my experience as a Christian from birth. Like we go to places and we can't avoid speaking out about that. So we just go and we start talking, did you know that this is what happens in a very gentle way? Like I never got to accuse people, but presenting the facts and the things I was just learning, because those are so new to me as a new advocate, as somebody who's just learning how to care about that.
JD (10:36)
Hmm.
Right.
Caroline Oliveira (10:55)
So I used to share that a lot and I started posting a lot of things that I learned about the cruelty of animal exploitation. And first I started as a vegetarian in 2018. It's still a challenge for me to quit dairy.
JD (11:11)
By the way, that's also the year I went vegetarian, was 2018. So I see some of my story in yours, but continue. So you were vegetarian and then you went vegan later on.
Caroline Oliveira (11:17)
yeah? Really?
Yeah, it took me a while because combined with those changes in my mindset and that would lead to changes in my career and then lead to changes in the way I behave in my relationships. I was going through like some hard personal moments and there was not, I wasn't ready to do so much yet. So I went vegetarian first, willing to be vegan.
But still I struggled a lot with dairy products. It was very hard. It was cheese, mostly cheese. Cheese and other cheesy products. It was so present in my life. And when I became vegetarian, I became so dependent on that. That's something similar for my sister. She's on a similar path now. She's vegetarian, going vegan. She wants to, struggling still to take dairy away from her life. I say that we think of the food that we always ate.
JD (11:53)
Is it the cheese?
Yeah, yeah, that's it for me.
Caroline Oliveira (12:20)And then we think of eliminating everything that has animal products. And then you are like left with a very little amount of food and you think like, how am I going to live with this that's left? It's so little. The great reality is that when you start exploiting other things to eat, you gain a lot of options. You never think of that. You only think in the beginning, at least, of what you lose, you just accept, you cut a lot of things. And that's not like real when you take the courage to
JD (12:44)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Caroline Oliveira (12:50)
You learn a lot of new things to eat.
I was talking to my sister one of these days and saying how beautiful it is to have a young youth in church connected to your friends in church and how fun it is singing together and going out and preaching together and leafletting and doing all of those church activities that you have and going to church early and going back home, eating fast, going back to church and meeting your friends, you gain so much. And I feel that I wouldn't have had a richer youth age or a childhood if I had been brought up in a non-Christian home. So it doesn't, it was.
JD (13:31)
Yeah, share with me more about your Christian background. You were raised in a Christian family. And you're in Brazil as well. What's it like being a Christian in Brazil for those of our listeners, mostly in the US, UK, who have a different context with society and their faith?
Caroline Oliveira (13:50)
Brazil is technically a neutral country, if you look at it politically, but in reality we are a very big Christian country. Mostly Catholic, but evangelical churches are very big here too. Many expressions that we have in Brazil and Brazilian Portuguese come from religion.
So we mention Jesus a lot and we have a lot of other sayings that come from faith and that's because we are in a very peaceful country.
JD (14:28)
You mean at Sinergia Animal you have certain sayings that come from, like, popular Christian sayings?
Caroline Oliveira (14:33)
Yeah, I don't know if I can remember any. I say misericordia a lot. Misericordia is like mercy. It's like something I say, have mercy. But that's saying a lot and saying it in a funny way. But it's something that you do a lot here in the Northeast. Like misericordia.
JD (14:37)
Are there any that come to mind?
Mm. Exactly. It's like what people in the Bible would plead is to have mercy on me, right?
Yeah.
Caroline Oliveira (14:55)
Yeah, and then maybe through the conversation I can remember some others, but I always tell my friends like I say a lot of things like Jesus is a very important part of my life. So this is just built in on the person that I am and it's something that I can deny.
JD (15:15)
And is your background evangelical, Catholic?
Caroline Oliveira (15:17)
Evangelical, so that came from my mother. My mother was brought up in an Evangelical household and then she married my father, they met in church. They were both from God's assembly back then. Yeah, so I was I was born in as a member of assembly in God's assembly and
JD (15:32)
So more charismatic, more Pentecostal.
Caroline Oliveira (15:45)
My mother, I think my mother is the biggest reference I had. I was lucky enough to have my mother and my father sharing the same faith. But my mother was an example of love and kindness, like limitless, like Jesus, you know, that you can extend to others, you can extend that to the community and apply that to be a very dedicated Christian in your community and to do as much good as you can as a follower of Jesus. So that was a very beautiful example. So as children and we are in a family gathering, we are laughing about this, how our childhood was different from other friends that we had, because we only listened to Christian songs at home. So we know how to sing like very old Christian songs that many people from now don't even know.
At weekends, we used to gather to watch those cartoons, biblical stories, Jesus, I don't know if that was a big thing in Brazil.
JD (16:52)
Sure. Do you have a favorite? Was it like a VeggieTales kind of a thing or?
Caroline Oliveira (16:56)
No, yeah, but that was that, it was not that cartoony looking, but it was called stories of Jesus. Yeah, maybe I can share. Yeah, but that one I remember and that's still when I pray, it's involuntary, but that's the image of Jesus that comes to my mind because he has such a
JD (17:11)
There are so many of these all over. Yeah.
Caroline Oliveira (17:25)
Calming and comforting voice. And that was the work of the person that was Jesus, but it was calming and always like brought us to a place of reflection and so much love built in each word. And that was so important to us because those are the stories that fed us when we were children. Those are the stories that we told each other and discussed and we were very good.
JD (17:26)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Caroline Oliveira (17:54)
I don't think I'm that good anymore, but we were playing biblical trivia and this kind of stuff. And that's the household that I had. It was such a beautiful one. I feel that I was very blessed to have this opportunity to share that with my family.
JD (18:10)
So that's so wonderful.
Yeah, thank you for sharing. It's such a beautiful household and model you had in your mother and church community that you had. I'd like to ask about that going vegetarian step for you and then later vegan, how that fit with your faith? So it came about after you saw that image of, or that video of how pigs are slaughtered and the kind of fear in their eyes. And it sounds like you had mercy for them. Was it hard to reconcile that with faith? And I know a lot of Christians are really big meat eaters, right? And like, there are probably a lot of people listening to this podcast who haven't gone vegetarian or vegan. I would argue that's not even the most important thing they have to do to help animals. Like you can, you can still eat meat, but donate to charities like Sinergia Animal or others, and, and do even more good. If you think of the most impact they could have for animals, it's probably more important that they put money, towards helping animals. But, but yeah, how did you, how, how did your going vegetarian fit in with faith and I'd love to hear more about that.
Caroline Oliveira (19:11)
Yeah, so I have to tell you maybe a previous story in those like breaking moments in life where you question everything and you go through some processes. You know that churches sometimes are not the most welcoming places when you have questions or doubts. Yeah. Yeah.
JD (19:29)
when you ask the wrong question, right? When you ask the tough questions, yeah, not every church is seeking truth in that kind of way, right?
Caroline Oliveira (19:37)
Yeah, and even I, today I have more maturity to look back to that moment and say like, those who come to Jesus are just who needed more. So there are many compassionate people in many places that have never like stepped a foot from church and never heard of Jesus and are still amazing people. And those who come closer, I think are those who needed more.
If you think of the church as built around people and people who need it, we are talking about people with rough nature, like people who can be hard, people who can be mean at times even. So at some point, I think I got a little discouraged of being part of a church or, yeah, I questioned some things and I think I broke inside.
JD (20:10)
Mm.
Caroline Oliveira (20:33)
The moment when I decided to be a vegetarian was another moment in which I...
JD (20:36)
Was that connected to resistance to vegetarianism or just in general, jaded with the church or the brokenness or the fallenness of the people in church?
Caroline Oliveira (20:44)
It wasn't directly connected to vegetarianism because this was way before. This moment that I had this breakthrough around churches. I think I had or I was taught at some moment, I had a vision of Jesus and of God that was mistaken somehow. I because I was a child of God and was so connected to Jesus and so that created the Christian work that was developing
I would be spared of some sufferings or spared of the consequences of some poor choices that I made and that didn't relate to reality. And at some point I was very disappointed with some people injured and also with the consequences of some choices that I made for being too naive or too young, not knowing that those choices and the suffering that came from those were not punishment.
And that I think is a mistake that we as Christians make sometimes is to drive people to think that they are going to be punished somehow if they sin, if they make mistakes. Those are not punishments. The consequences are those that bring us up to a better state of ourselves. But I was too young to realize that.
So at some moment I was questioning everything, even my relationship with Jesus and Christianity and church and everything. But from the question, then came this more critical version of me that later questioned and kept questioning, started asking questions about the animals and how we couldn't, even though we preach about mercy and compassion, we couldn't extend that to other beings that were clearly suffering too. So what was the difference? What was the line that we draw? And that's the thing that's aside like Christians eat a lot of meat and that doesn't resonate much with the compassion that we pray or that we preach. But thinking that if you look at church and people, because people are flawed, right? We are not perfect. And that's why we need to be there so much.
JD (23:08)
So do you think of it in the sense of like the church itself isn't perfect and it never claimed to be perfect. It's a place for broken people. And so you shouldn't look at the church's lack of care for something as like a normative example that, because the church is this way, we should all be this way. But all along the church admitted it was broken and that's why we need God. That's what I hear you saying
Caroline Oliveira (23:08)
We see that some.
Done.
Yeah, and that's true. I know, all need and I think the closer we get, that means that we needed more. So if I was brought up, like it wasn't by chance that I was brought up so close to Jesus, but I probably had this rough nature that needed to be in closer touch with that compassion, that love, that is the essence of Christianity. So, but I don't think it’s a mistake of the church itself or the teachings or anything. The scripture that says that people should be perfect. This is something that we, I think we have higher standards when you're looking at people that follow the Christian teachings like, this shouldn't happen or these other things shouldn't happen. And it's not true. That's not true at all. Like we are all learning and trying to be better and we are in need of getting better. And that's why you are there.
JD (24:13)
Sure.
Caroline Oliveira (24:24)
So understanding that was very important to me. And understanding the essence of Christ as my model and not other people as my model was something that was very reassuring for me. Like looking and seeing that even through the whole turbulence and the whole noise that we have in the world, we still have this whole model of perfection and pure love and limitless heart that we can
JD (24:33)
Mm.
Caroline Oliveira (24:53)
people trying to be more alive. So we have something bigger than us to look at and to inspire us to be better. And yeah, I think that line of thinking, that's what brought me later to vegetarianism.
JD (25:07)
That's very encouraging, especially when Christians aren't perfect. Also the animal space, if you're somebody who cares a lot about animals, it's easy to look around and see so few Christians and feel really discouraged. At least I feel that way sometimes as someone who thinks that God cares a lot about animals and that Christians should be doing a lot to help animals. Sometimes the representation that I expect just isn't there. And I think you're right. Instead of asking, why aren't more Christians helping? Maybe asking why.
Why am I not helping more? And how can I be more Christlike? How can I follow the example of Jesus? I think that's exactly the right kind of posture we should take. But I do want to push back a little bit I think many, many Christians who don't help animals would agree that animal torture is bad, animal cruelty is wrong. But when push comes to shove, there's only so much margin they have and so many resources. And they would rather help people. And if you look at scripture, it seems like God's often talking to people, God is doing things for people, Jesus came as a man to die for the world. I guess people debate about whether the world is all of creation or whether the world is just the world of people. But it does seem like in scripture, sometimes God puts quite a bit more concern for humans than for animals.
What do you answer when Christians ask you, in a world of so much human suffering, why focus on mercy for animals?
Caroline Oliveira (26:29)
Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I could bring here to this conversation some citations from this picture about, like, all the moments in which the animals were mentioned or mentioned about compassion.
I could bring you a lot of citations of those and we could discuss, but I'm sure you have been exposed to that in other conversations. So you must like maybe know some citations by heart.
JD (26:54)
Well, are there any specific ones that areinfluential for you or any that come to mind? Maybe not all of them, but any particular ones that for you are helpful examples?
Caroline Oliveira (27:04)
Well, from my childhood I was always fascinated with the story and I don't know how to say his name in English, but it was Balão and Demiú. How do you call it in English?
JD (27:17)
Yeah. Balaam's donkey. Is that right? Yes.
I think they say Balaam's donkey or Balaam's ass. Balaam's. Yes.
Caroline Oliveira (27:24)
Balaam's donkey. Okay, okay. It sounds similar to what we had. Yeah, all my reading is very important. So some names changed completely. But it was very cool to think of an animal being brought to speak and to be heard as a significant matter to change the direction of someone's action.
JD (27:36)
Sure, sure.
Caroline Oliveira (27:50)
That was something that I always thought was very intriguing, the idea of talking to animals and connecting to animals was there in the Bible, even in Noah's example.
JD (27:58)
For listeners, reference, this is numbers 22 versus 21 to 39. But no, is a great example.
Caroline Oliveira (28:07)
but I do have a better one and that comes more from my adult experience and maybe I have to go through it more in detail to explain why that for me is a reference that resonates with my work with animals. Is there the example of the woman that was brought to Jesus because she was caught in adultery? So just going through the story, she was brought to Jesus by the law. People from that time and as this was an infraction, a scene that was directly connected to punishment by death, they were kind of trying to trick Jesus into saying something that would maybe show a tendency to one side or the other. If you went with the law, you would be condemning the woman to be killed. If you went in favor of the woman, you would be against the law. There was this conflict in doing the compassionate thing and doing the right thing. What the law supported back then. For me that's the story, the whole New Testament that the most represents what the endless love of Jesus was. Because his response was so based in love because he brought people to reflection, like okay, if this woman is going to become damned for this sin.
How about you and how about the things that you have committed without needing to say that precisely but just indicating that to people he was able to change everybody's approach to that situation and people just left to change because they could see that if I'm going to put this person through this because of seeing like what what's to happen to me so what do I have to offer back and then you think like okay Jesus is perfect.
He had no sin, he condemned the woman, but then he doesn't. And above the law, he brings compassion and he tells her to just like, go ahead and live her life free from that burden of that sin. And that's so inspiring to me because today we have this standard, this approach. Like we always say animals and we have this reality, like we are both animals. Some people use the example in Genesis to say that animals are dominion. And what does this dominion really mean? Like we have to overpower everything and everyone and put everything to our service. And then comes Jesus and he just like questions the hypocrisy of living a life of law, a law that was supposed to protect family, and family is based in boundaries and in love, and still use that to kill someone who was in the wrong. And then he brings this perspective that love and compassion should be above the standard that we see.
So if this is the established reality, we kill animals, we confine animals, we put them through miserable lives and then we kill them and we eat them and we profit on their miserable lives and their bodies and their resources. What is stopping us from rising to the point of view of compassion and rising above the standard of doing that to animals and just choosing a different path?
JD (31:19)
Mm.
Caroline Oliveira (31:49)
Jesus in that day demonstrated love to that that's been neglected, or that that's been seen as just like a victim of the system. So that's the law, that's what we have, that's what we do, so this person is doomed. And then Jesus just invites you to... How about love and compassion? Won't that go above what we see as a standard? Do you have to keep on acting as we always acted just because this is the established reality or we can use our mercy and the teachings of love to rise above that and look at the situation in a more compassionate way. So for me, that's the story that moves me the most, I think in the whole Bible, and it's something that really inspires me to work to break the pattern, to look into the situations that we see, that we recognize they are not okay.
JD (32:38)
Mm.
Caroline Oliveira (32:44)
with more compassionate eyes.
JD (32:48)
Do you think it's possible from a biblical perspective that it's like technically okay under the law to eat animals, right? Like God told Peter, kill and eat. God told people in the Old Testament that they could eat animals. Like it's technically okay to eat animals, but it's that lacking restraint from the kind of compassion and love of caring for animals and treating them as God intended. It's analogous to that case with the woman at the well, right?
In some sense, maybe the people were correct to condemn the woman, but that wasn't the highest standard. The ultimate high standard was Christ's compassion. So we might say in some sense what they're doing is technically correct or just, but it's really not embodying the fullest extent of Christ's compassion or love.
Caroline Oliveira (33:33)
Yeah, that's true. You summarized this well. And also, I'd like to add, and please share your perspective on this because this is more of my sensation. Even though it was allowed, it was never encouraged for people to eat animals. If you look at genesis and you look at Adam and Eve, they were never encouraged to kill anything before seeing come and before the shift that was the thing after the choice.
JD (33:46)
Mm. The Fall.
Caroline Oliveira (34:03)
They were given to feed themselves just herbs and plants. And that was the established thing that we had later. And then it looked like further, like in the future, when people were praying because they wanted meat in the desert, I think it's Exodus.
JD (34:24)
Might have been the Exodus. Right.
Caroline Oliveira (34:28)
Yeah, so people were there walking in the desert and they wanted meat. At the point that they were so annoyed about that, that God gave them meat, but that was not just that God was giving them bread. They were supposed to feel blessed about that, but they wanted more, they wanted something different. But I don't think it was ever encouraged. And people will say, Jesus fed people with fish.
But if you consider the reality of what was fishing back then and what's fishing now, or the reality of an animal that was killed in biblical times, and we have to remember that in the, I won't remember precisely what book, but in the basis of God's teachings, right in the beginning, he taught people how animals should be killed so that was less cruel and was cleaner. There was still
JD (34:59)
Mm.
Caroline Oliveira (35:24)
hints of care from that. Or in the New Testament when Jesus says, don't be anxious about anything, look at the birds they are provided for, they have what they need. And then how important would it be? But I don't think it was intended for us to think of us as superior in a way that we can overpower the others, but in a way that God cares for all of us.
JD (35:36)
Hmm.
Caroline Oliveira (35:53)
and we should care for the others that need us too because we have God providing to us and I heard a beautiful saying I won't remember who was the owner of that. It was like the angels are to us what we should be to the animals. Like if you are superior and if they are our dominion they will be given to us to be taken care of not to be mistreated and put into suffering.
JD (36:12)
Hmm.
Caroline Oliveira (36:22)
So I don't believe that goes against, it's a matter of interpretation. And if you go back to the essence of God's love and go to the essence of God's, Jesus teachings, you would see that it's love, it's limitless love and compassion and mercy. And I don't think, can't see, when I think of that Jesus that I told you about from my childhood, that one that really touches me. And it's the one that still touches me.
JD (36:45)
Yes.
Caroline Oliveira (36:52)
If I think of him, I can't imagine him providing us with the kind of situation that different animals see today. So it's not just a matter of killing and eating animals. We are talking about the system called factory farming that's doing way worse than just killing out of need, killing and feeding people. It's profiting a lot to the expense of the animals. It's putting them into unnecessary suffering. It’s exploiting the labor of those who have no choice but work in those industries many times, even in illegal situations sometimes. So it's a system of exploitation that was brought out of the interest of profit. It's not about killing an animal or feeding your family anymore. It's something that's much bigger. It's just an oppressive system. I really ask myself the opposite question. How can we talk about love and be full of love and still hold this and not let this be expanded to the end.
JD (37:57)
So for you, it wasn't the question of should I not hurt or eat animals? It's more the question of how can I positively show the love and compassion of Christ? And then when you see an animal like a pig being slaughtered, screaming with tears in its eyes, you see, you can only see it through the eyes of Christ. For me, it was a very similar reason I went vegetarian. So a similar desire to exemplify, embody the love of Christ in all areas of life and asking myself what that would look like.
And being confronted with the reality that the vision of Eden in Genesis was vegetarian, that God didn't give them animals to eat, but God gave them the green herb and even animals seem to eat only plants back then. So that's part of the original design. And we want to say that's good, right? I mean, the Eden story doesn't make much sense. Yes.
Caroline Oliveira (38:47)
Beautiful one. Like all of us living together in collaboration, living side by side, being like us taking care of the animals and the earth. So we had like a happy planet and happy and happy animals and we could live in a collaborative way. And I think that that's also the essence of everything. That's how the Bible starts. So it's the first teaching that comes. It's this harmony that falls there.
JD (39:12)
Right. And it's also how it seems to end, right? Like if you look at visions and revelations about the new heavens and the new earth, in Revelation 22, we read about there being no more suffering, death or pain. And it's hard to imagine something like the current state of factory farming existing in heaven, right? Like existing in the new creation. And so it's hard to justify perpetuating something with brokenness that would be wiped out in the new heavens and new earth. And for me, it was also looking at what Jesus said about the birds even, right? I think you were correct to bring those up and it would be very strange if God uses analogies to birds or even when Christ says, Israel, Israel, how I'd love to gather you under my wings like a hen gathers her chicks. It'd be so strange if he would use examples to animals, if we were to have no concern for animals or no sense of sympathy for them, it'd be terrible examples to pick.
Caroline Oliveira (40:14)
And the whole analogy of the shepherd, if you think of that, Jesus mentioned the shepherd and the work of sheep so much. Yeah. And you think of the good shepherd that leaves the 99 sheep behind and then go seek for one to save one, to rescue one. That's another very beautiful story. But then you have the, people ask about the Saturday Sabbath, and then they ask, what happens if a sheep
JD (40:19)
Right, it's a good shepherd, right?
Caroline Oliveira (40:44)
falls on a pit on Saturday. Should I rescue? And Jesus' answer was, yeah, they should rescue. So again, it's confession going above the established law. And I think it's beautiful what you mentioned. It was very moving. I didn't think through revelations, but that's true. If you think of Jesus' missions of restoring the state of the original earth, bringing peace to earth, no suffering, no crying. That's such a beautiful and moving reality that we deep inside all of us miss that. We miss that deeply and we are just like deluded with this reality that's been established around us. But the truth is we miss that because that's the essence of us. So having compassion is something that we actually can avoid. We sometimes try to look away from that, but it bothers us because we know that deep inside that that's not the natural state that we want. And it's not what we envision for the future of ourselves or of earth and mankind.
JD (41:48)
So I think that's really what we're doing when we care for animals. It's not just stooping down to care for some stupid birds. It's just random acts of kindness to random animals. It's part of this redemptive vision from Genesis to Revelations, from the creation to the eschaton, being agents of renewal for God's purposes in this world. And so I think what you're doing is quite important. I want to encourage you in that. I also want to get into some more specifics. We spent a lot of time
Caroline Oliveira (42:16)
Sure.
JD (42:17)
having a wonderful conversation about faith and about your background. And I'm glad we did that. I want to ask a few questions about Sinergia Animal and about specifically what you're doing there to help animals and bring about real change for animals. And maybe you could walk us through maybe a little bit about the current problem of factory farming.
I was reading the animal charity evaluators report on Sinergia Animal and they mentioned that in Brazil where you work there's still 40 million pigs that are intensively farmed during a lot of awful practices like the sow crates where mothers can't move for what six plus weeks on end for their piglets to suck from them. And also like you mentioned early slaughter and many awful conditions in these farms.
Chickens are all around the world kept in cages, so cramped that they can't spread their wings. There's over 800 million egg-laying hens subjected to these kinds of practices in countries where Sinergia works. Those are the main kinds of sufferings that come to mind, and those are really big numbers. When you think about the problem that Sinergia Animal is tackling, is it mostly the suffering of egg-laying hens and pigs?
Caroline Oliveira (43:33)
It's bigger than that. I think, okay, we started in 2017. Just like two to four activists doing the work. It was a very small organization and it was the only one back then, one of the only ones in our country doing the work dedicated to the global south. So this is something that we always say, we are very bold because we were willing to make institutional change when we were really small.
And we work with pressure campaigns. So we work facing our antagonists, somehow the industry and asking and demanding from them the changes that we want to see into better standards in welfare for animals. So we started like that.
JD (44:22)
So give me an example of that. So like I'm McDonald's, I have caged eggs in my supply chain and you approach me, what is it you say and how is it you get me to have more humane practices for my eggs?
Caroline Oliveira (44:35)
Okay.
In Brazil, we work with pigs and dairy cows. In other countries, we mostly work with cage-free policies. So we always look into working with whichever area is more neglected. So that's why we have different choices for different countries. That's according to other organizations working, doing similar work. In Brazil, we have amazing organizations doing cage-free. So we dedicate ourselves to work with pigs and dairy cows.
So what we do is we start with corporate outreach. So we reach out to potential targets that if we could affect change on them, through that we could benefit millions of animals. So we don't go for small producers or for small industries, but we reach for the big producers very boldly so to demand from them higher standards for animals.
So we start that by approaching them through emails and other more formal communications, but still a little distant. If they don't respond, then we start like threatening them. That would be the best word for that. But we start telling them that we’re going to lead a campaign and a public exposure of the reality that they are still contributing to perpetuate that the audience is going to know that.
JD (45:58)
Are those on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter? How do you do those campaigns?
Caroline Oliveira (46:04)
Our pressure campaigns, they are on the street. We very often go in front of the buildings of the big companies, their headquarters, and we have our t-shirts and our signs, and we create very creative campaigns. Yeah, okay, yeah. Those are amazing opportunities for us to follow them, to be there, demanding the changes that we want. What we came to learn...
JD (46:09)
okay.
Have you been on those yourself?
Caroline Oliveira (46:30)
is that the standards that many of these industries apply in global south countries are way lower than those that they apply in Europe or in North America, for example. That's because our laws are still more permissive. There's still less people caring or knowing about the situation of animals exploited for food. So they come here to exploit that too. And that's another way for them to profit and to find easier ways and cheaper ways to produce their products at the expense of animals. So doing this in the countries where we are, because we are focused on the Global South, it's where we do our work and it's where we are born. Today we are in eight countries in Latin America and Southeast Asia. It's a big challenge because we don't have the legal background that we could build our cause on.
People are not aware, so we have to do a lot of work in awareness about the organization, our cause and the reality of animals in industry. So it's a big endeavor, it's a big challenge. And we do that by being very public and very creative and very bold. So we go to the streets, we have our signs and we make demonstrations, we take pictures and we shame and we name the companies. Sometimes we do some puns on their names or their logos at the moment.
And that works because some of these companies, they proud themselves of saying that they are family oriented or they are very sustainable and very committed to good values and showing their audience, their clients that that's not the reality and what they are contributing to. So for that, we have the support of our work with undercover investigations.
That's very important. It's one pillar of our work. We use those images in our paper to campaign and to demonstrate what happens to the animals in the factory farming in our countries. In the beginning, that was something that was always important to us because our founder, Carolina, she came from investigations. That's how she became vegan and advocate and then created Sinergia years later.
I think mostly because people think that those things that they see, the cruel things that they see, factory farming, they don't happen in our countries. Because we are smaller, our meat and dairy and eggs, they come from smaller producers and people still have that image of the chicken in the backyard. Yeah, and that's a lot for us to, like...
JD (49:09)
It's the image of the happy farm with all the animals hanging out. Right.
Caroline Oliveira (49:18)
Yeah, bring down that image that's been even encouraged by the industry of happy animals, like living in collaboration and really to give them resources and their bodies to us. That's not something that's real. So working with undercover investigations is something that's crucial to our work. We use those images to support the work we do when we have to go through pressure campaigns.
So during the pressure complaints phase, that's where we go to the business headquarters and we teach them a lot on social media too. So we have campaign actions that happen only online and our activists go and they demand change and they go to the most recent post on Instagram of one of those industries where they ask why they haven't committed to whatever better standard we are advocating for.
And yeah, very annoying, it relinquishes and I think that... Yeah.
JD (50:15)
Yeah. Well, you have to be to get the job done sometimes, right? So yeah, so we're running short on time, which is so sad because this has been such a rich, meaningful conversation to me. Some things I wanted to talk about that I'll just flag over now and provide more resources to and invite you to as well. Are things like how do these how well do these work and do they work? I'll just mention right now they seem to work very well, right? So Sinergia Animal, I think in this past year you secured about 40 cage free egg commitments.
Caroline Oliveira (50:24)
It's true.
JD (50:45)
and about 10 pig welfare commitments. We talked about how those work. Up to date, you've secured hundreds of these kinds of commitments to enact change for, I think last year, what, it was 113 million animals? Is that right?
Caroline Oliveira (50:59)
Hundred and thirteen million animals. Yeah. Yeah. And we just went through this very thorough and comprehensive evaluation from ACE and more charity evaluators. And that was a challenge. They are very thorough. It was a long process. And then
JD (51:16)
The world's best evaluator for animal charities. And they put you as a recommended charity.
Caroline Oliveira (51:19)
Yeah.
Yeah, here we are. And it's our seventh year on a roll. We got the title when we got there as a recommended charity in 2018. And we managed to keep our status to this day. So having these for the seventh year in a row was very special.
JD (51:41)
That's incredible. I mean, this is part of the reason why I give to campaigns like Sinergie as I would encourage Christians For impact Christians who want to make an impact in the world to do so. Just look at the dollar by dollar basis, right? So this 113 million number, was this just last year? The number of animals that were affected.
Caroline Oliveira (52:00)
The potential number of each year of the impact on the 2-year cost.
JD (52:02)
Each year. And your budget is only about what, $2 million or so.
Caroline Oliveira (52:09)
It's a little over. This year, we reached 3 million. You mean our general budget or operating budget is around 2 million. Yeah. But
JD (52:15)
Correct, yeah. So if you think of it dollar for dollar, you're talking about helping dozens of animals for every single dollar that you donate, right? This isn't some small number. This is like, you'd be willing to step down, mean, if you'd be willing to, the image that comes to mind is like, if you imagine a bird in a cage or a pig, strangled on the ground. And you think it's worth even just a quarter to help them, to free them from their plight. You should be willing to give to a charity like Sinergia Animal, which is actually probably several times more impactful than that. And that's just like common sense thing. Like who wouldn't give 25 cents to free an animal from a cage or to free a pig from an inhumane slaughter or from being pinned in a sow crate? For a while, I was pretty skeptical of actually
Caroline Oliveira (52:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, right.
JD (53:11)
vegetarianism in general, because I didn't think these things were happening. And then I learned these awful things were. And then for a while, I was pretty skeptical that there's anything that we could do to tackle what's happening on farms. I thought the animal industry was just too big and the problem was too complicated. But then I learned through animal charity evaluators that the kinds of campaigns that you're doing actually do really seem to work. So you have organizations, food companies that really did not look like they were going to make cage free commitments really were not going to change. And then after pressure from groups like yours, they do. And there's been some great case studies on that on the animal charity evaluators website. I highly recommend if listeners are curious about this or unsure, I highly recommend checking out the report for Sinergia Animals on Animal Charity Evaluators website. Or I imagine they could get in touch with you too, Caroline, because a big part of what you do, and we haven't talked about this specifically, is raising money to try to help
Caroline Oliveira (54:04)
Yeah, of course.
JD (54:08)
more animals and help connect people who who have a heart and compassion for animals to convert that into concrete change so
Caroline Oliveira (54:16)
Yeah, I can make a short pitch on that. So what makes us so effective is that we always look into making institutional change, level of change. So we always wait in for the big companies, we aim for the big institutions for our diet change program. So every change that we make,
it's meant to impact the lives of millions of animals because of the reach that those institutions that we approach have. Also, there's the matter of the currency. So donations in dollars, in pounds, in euros, they make a huge difference in our countries because of the difference in currencies and the fact that we work a lot in synergy. So we're always looking for ways to work in collaboration with other organizations, other partners and institutions. So that makes us bigger, makes us stronger, stronger and makes the movement move forward faster. And I think those elements combined with the pressure campaigns, because the companies are not changing out of the love in their hearts. We are not in that moment in history yet. Maybe, yeah, it won't happen out of love.
It happens out of pressure and still we don't have the legal background to support that. So being bold enough to face those companies is something that brought us the big results that we have. You can just check that and report and see the numbers that we have. Until the end of the year, we have a very generous donor matching any donations that we get from individuals four times. So every dollar becomes $5.
And with one dollar you have the potential to have, normally, at least 53 to 54 chickens in our countries, but that's going to be five times bigger if we get any donations from individuals at the end of the year. So it's a good chance to make a great impact. And as you said before, maybe we cannot do all the changes that we want in our lives immediately.
I can testify about how difficult it is sometimes to make the shift and make the transformation and how much more impactful it can be to dedicate your resources, your financial resources to your organizations that are making a difference. So not just us, but we have other very powerful organizations working in our countries. And doing this in the global South is crucial because as the income grows, the consumption, the production of the normal products grow.
And if we don't address this early, this is going to be a huge problem as we can see that it has developed to be in bigger countries, in more developed countries. So yeah, I think that summarizes a little our current moment.
JD (57:17)
We'll have to bring you back on to talk more specifically about careers that Christians can take to help animals besides just donating and working for organizations like Synergia Animal, which are you ever hiring? And I imagine you hire locally, right? So I don't think most of the listeners would really be situated in the places where you'd be hiring. But I think we should have a conversation later about what that looks like and also some more in-depth questions about some of the funding needs and dynamics in the animal space. For now, just want to say thank you so much. And this has been a wonderful conversation. I've learned a lot. And I want to give you just one last chance to plug any specific resource or anything else before we wrap up.
Caroline Oliveira (57:58)
Okay, yeah, our talk took a shift to a different direction. had like many of their notes on other things that we could discuss. But please feel free to invite me anytime to discuss careers and challenges of being a fundraiser and the shift in careers from the for profit to nonprofit and there are many rich topics we can address. Thank you for this opportunity to have me here and to discuss a little our work in Synergia, you can, like any of our listeners now, can learn more about Synergia on our website. It's synergiainternational.org. You can follow us on social media. You can read the very comprehensive reports that we have from ACE. There's a lot of information there. And you can reach out to me. I'm Carolina Oliveira. I'm on LinkedIn. And can find me through Synergia Animal. And also, I'm connected in most EA events. So just reach out and we can talk. I'd love to talk further about any of these topics that we brought here or any other that I can support you.
JD (59:05)
Awesome. Listeners will include links in the description below for all these things. And also, if you want to get free one-on-one advising for your career, for how you can best make an impact for animals and for God's creation, you can do that for free. We have a service for this on our website. And we can connect you with mentors like Carolina, if she's open to it. And I think she would be. We'd love to chat with you one-on-one, pray with you, and just give you insights and possibly connections for how you might take the next step for a career that has a massive impact for God's kingdom. So thanks again, Carolina. And thanks everyone for, for watching. We'll see you again next time.
