Tommy Kumpf: Funding Missions by Earning to Give #18
Should Christians earn as much money as possible in order to give it to the poor? How much good could you do? Is this path dangerous? JD explores this theme with Tommy Kumpf, a quantitative trader at Susquehanna International Group in Philadelphia. He graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 2020 and currently earns-to-give to support global missions.
Articles, Scripture, organisations, and other media discussed in this episode
John Wesley’s Sermon – “Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can.” A foundational Christian perspective on money and generosity.
Our Earning to Give Explainer – Key concept summary on using your career to earn more and give generously.
500k – A ministry that Tommy supports that plants churches in rural India.
Our podcast with Ed Michaelson – Founder of 500k, sharing his vision for impactful giving through Christian vocations.
Our podcast with Jason Dykstra – Founder of Bless Big, a charity evaluator offering guidance for aspiring earn-to-givers.
Mentioned Scripture
Matthew 6:24 - “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
Proverbs 11:28 - “Those who trust in their riches will fall, but the righteous will thrive like a green leaf.”
Luke 12: 22-34 - Teachings of Money and Possessions
Acts 5:1-10 - Ananais and Sapphira
Mark 12:41-44 - The Widow’s Offering
Episode Highlights:
“Should I earn to give?”
“I don't think I would give a hundred percent prescriptive answer in the sense of like every Christian all the time should definitely be earning to give and if you're not taking them the highest paying job you can then you're doing something wrong. But I would say that being able to make money is a gift that God has given certain people and I'm one of those people and generally in our current day and age just happening to be good at math and like quantitative reasoning and probabilistic thinking is a skill that's very lucrative in the financial industry.”
How much good you can do
“I've gotten involved in a ministry called 500K, which is built around sending missionaries in India to reach unreached villages. And they particularly are extremely effective with money in the sense of you can take one missionary and you can fund them for five years for only $5,000, which sounds like it's like an unbelievably low number, $5,000 for five years of ministry. And not only that, this person will go to some amount of churches, some amount of villages, average like five villages, and they'll plant a church in like three or five them. But the end state is at the end of five years, they'll have three churches with 10 baptized believers each, which is 30 baptized believers for only $5,000, which is like, $130 per person…
Maybe a level of which you can get too numeric, but if you do the numbers, if you donate $300,000, that's like, you know, thousands of people saved. Which even saying it is crazy. Well, like a thousand people saved maybe if it's $300 per person. That's like, that's like unthinkable.”
Earning-to-give vs direct evangelism at the office
“I would agree that I would think they're both important. I think maybe this is overly cynical of me, but from an effectiveness standpoint, like I'm certain that the money I'm doing is doing great work and that's more effective… I haven't converted anyone at work.”
Sacrificial Giving
“I think we should be thinking of giving in terms of what we have left more than like the amount we give in that sense, because what we have left is the real sacrifice.”
Why Finance as a Career Path
“When I was in college and I was deciding which career to go into, I thought about finance for three reasons. The first reason was that I can make a lot of money and can do good with that money. The second reason was that I was good at it and I enjoyed doing it. And the third reason is that finance is not a particularly Christian sphere of quantitative finance. And so going in this space gives me an opportunity to talk to people who aren't Christian.”
Money and Idolatry
“Money is an idol, obviously. But it's less the money itself that's the idol— but the ability to make the money. It's like, ‘This guy's rich. He must be cool.’ It's that money gives you some type of status signal.”
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JD (00:01)
Should Christians aim to get rich in order to serve the poor? That's what we're talking about today. I am interested in this concept called earning to give, which is exactly about that. John Wesley put it this way, earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can, because money is a tool in the hands of Christians. It is a father to the fatherless. It is a husband to the widow. It is food for the hungry. So should Christians who are grounded in Christ and mature in faith intentionally pursue
a high earning salary in order to give money away and influence wealthy peers. I wanted to talk to someone who does just that. So we brought on Tommy Cunf. He's a quantitative trader. And we talk about whether Christians should earn to give what Christians can do to guard themselves against the spiritual dangers of that. And we talked about some of his favorite charities to give to.
So don't mind the lower resolution than normal. My audio quality's bit off and we had a abrupt ending, but if you want to learn more about this, you can check out our report on earning to give on our website on Christians for impact.org.
Let's champagne do it.
JD (01:05)
Tommy, thanks so much for coming on. For those who don't know you shared maybe a little bit about yourself, what you do and how does you impact the world.
Tommy (01:13)
Yeah, yeah, so my name is Tommy. I work as a quantitative trader in Philadelphia at Susquehanna International Group. Yeah, I went to school for computer science, but I've been doing this ever since I graduated in 2020, and I really like it. I think it's great.
JD (01:28)
Nice. What does your day to day look like as a quantitative? Actually, even before that, let me ask this question. Should Christians earn to give?
Tommy (01:37)
Yeah, I mean I think what I would say is
I don't think I would give a hundred percent prescriptive answer in the sense of like every Christian all the time should definitely be earning to give and if you're not taking them the highest paying job you can then you're doing something wrong. But I would say that being able to make money is a gift that God has given certain people and I'm one of those people and generally in our current day and age just happening to be good at math and like quantitative reasoning and probabilistic thinking is a skill that's very lucrative in the financial industry.
And so in that sense, I have this gift and I think for me and my talents and the way that God has built me, the best way for me to advance God's kingdom, if that's appropriate language, is by making a lot of money and giving it to those who are explicitly doing things that advance God's kingdom. Like with my salary, I can support, well, depending on which organization, anywhere from like...
single digit to like tens of ministries that just wouldn't have the support otherwise. So I think to the answer of should Christians learn to give, I think that is definitely one viable way to serve God in our careers.
JD (02:55)
Yeah. Isn't that so crazy that like centuries ago, if you're really good at math, like maybe, I don't know, like maybe you like count the sheep or like take taxes, your tax collector or something, right? You're like despised and hated by the masses. But now like if you're good at math, then you're like a data scientist or a quad trader and you can be nerdy and earn the big bucks.
Tommy (03:06)
Thank
I
have thought the exact same thing and I've said the exact same thing to my coworkers because it's not even that it's arguable that like I don't know 50 years from now 100 years from now probably AI will do my job better than I will so I'm just in this this sweet spot before AI takes over and after trading is invented as a career so it's a good spot to be in.
JD (03:37)
Yeah.
So the people I know in quantitative trading earn starting is usually like around like 200,000 ish on the East coast. I'm not sure, but it kind of in that ballpark. then people who stick with it for a few years are earning like half a million to like a couple million a year. Does that sound about right in terms of like broad brushstrokes of earning potential?
Tommy (03:55)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep, I would agree, except I would say that I think starting salaries are probably higher than that 200 number now. They're probably closer, I don't know exactly, but somewhere in like the 300 range, probably.
JD (04:12)
Yeah. So let's take like the median person who's in this career path a few years in, maybe that's like a half a million a year salary. Um, and in the U S you can live pretty comfortably on like one or 200,000. So that means like what three or 400,000 a year in theory you could give away.
Tommy (04:21)
Yeah.
JD (04:32)
which is a lot of good, right? So how do you think about the good you could do with three or $400,000 donated a year?
Tommy (04:37)
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think it's... I agree with you. I agree that first, I would think the biggest challenge in the earning to give in the financial space, and like this is for me personally, I don't know if other people feel it, is that it's very easy to feel generous when the amount of money that you're giving away is a lot in dollars. But you know, let's say I'm giving half a million dollars, and I give away $200,000. That's like a lot of money.
but I still have $300,000, which puts me in like the almost certainly like top percent or top two, three percent of America. And so I think one thing is that it's like, one challenge is that I think we should be thinking of giving in terms of what we have left more than like the amount we give in that sense, because what we have left is like the real sacrifice. You know, I'm just gonna map and I make a lot of money. So like, I, should I really have all this money? So that didn't answer your question.
JD (05:27)
the widow's mind.
Tommy (05:33)
The answer to your question is that there's tons of good. mean, so recently I've gotten involved in a ministry called 500K, which is built around sending missionaries in India to reach unreached villages. And they particularly are extremely effective with money in the sense of you can take one missionary and you can fund them for five years for only $5,000, which sounds like it's like an unbelievably low number, $5,000 for five years of ministry.
And not only that, this person will go to some amount of churches, some amount of villages, average like five villages, and they'll plant a church in like three or five them. But the end state is at the end of five years, they'll have three churches with 10 baptized believers each, which is 30 baptized believers for only $5,000, which is like, I mean, that's like what, 130 per person or something? Maybe I did that wrong.
JD (06:29)
And
even if you fuzzed the numbers a bit, you're still talking about like tens, maybe hundreds of times less expensive per baptism, meaningful baptism than in the West, right? Or like to fund a church planter in the US is maybe 50 to $100,000 a year per church planter, right? It means like $1,000 a year in rural India. Yeah.
Tommy (06:32)
Yeah.
Exactly. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah,
it's like crazy. then if you, and you know, maybe there's maybe a level of which you can get too numeric, but if you do the numbers, if you donate $300,000, that's like, you know, thousands of people saved. Which even saying it is crazy. Well, like a thousand people saved maybe if it's 300 per person. That's like, that's like unthinkable.
JD (07:08)
Yeah, I like to keep some humility.
Yeah, I like to think of it like with some barriers where like, I don't want to count conversion costs or whatever, but I do think there is like a robust output, which is baptism, right? We have this thing, people in rural India getting baptized. It's a meaningful indicator that they might have made a life-changing decision to follow Jesus, especially in a culture where like, there's social pressure not to, and there's nobody else who's really Christian in those areas, right? Like, why would you do that unless you really had a life change?
Tommy (07:37)
Yeah.
JD (07:38)
For those who want to listen to more about 500k, we have a podcast with Ed, which I can include in the link description. have you been earning to give since you entered finance? Or is this something you kind of picked up as you? Yeah.
Tommy (07:49)
Yeah. Well,
I guess it depends on how you define it. When I was in college and I was deciding which career to go into, I thought about finance for three reasons. The first reason was that I can make a lot of money and can do good with that money. The second reason was that I was good at it and I enjoyed doing it. And the third reason is that finance is not a particularly Christian sphere of quantitative finance. And so going in this space gives me an opportunity to talk to people who aren't Christian. Otherwise,
have a very different portrayal of Christianity than what I would present to them. And so I think that's a helpful thing.
JD (08:24)
How do you think about the good you can do as a Christian witness to non-believers in the finance space, directly praying for inviting people to Bible studies who are non-Christian compared to the good you can do through earning to give as someone who earns lot of money?
Tommy (08:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, if you want to do like,
JD (08:42)
Both seem important. but I'm
curious how you kind of weigh those different things.
Tommy (08:47)
So one thing that you can do, and so this is something I'm doing, this is slightly different, but in 500k, when I was visiting, was some, administration is course focused on evangelism, but one of the ministry partners when I visited mentioned that there was some humanitarian thing that they needed some money for. They're hosting a bunch of orphans, it's incredible what they're doing, but they're hosting a bunch of orphans and they need a playground.
for the orphans, but they don't have the money for that because that's not what their ministry is built for. And I, coming back from India, talked to my coworkers and was like, you do you guys want to give some money to this playground in India and support these people? And they agreed to it. So that's $2,000, which is not a lot, but the reason I bring it up is my coworkers have a lot of money. And so if you can convince one of them to start donating, then it like multiplies your impact in a great way.
So in that sense, there's like, you're earning to give, but it would actually be more valuable for me to convert like, to hire paying coworkers than me than it would be for me to give myself, if you're just looking at dollars and not like, discipleship. So that's one thing, but even aside from that, I guess I would agree that I would think they're both important. I think maybe this is overly cynical of me, but from an effectiveness standpoint,
JD (09:56)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tommy (10:10)
I'm certain that the money I'm doing is doing great work and that's more effective than, I haven't converted anyone at work, know, like maybe...
JD (10:19)
Although you said
that you told the story of a miracle that you saw while in India to a coworker. Can you re-share that?
Tommy (10:25)
so unfortunately, this guy used to be a coworker of mine. We worked together at SIG a while ago. Now he works at a different trading company, but he was compelled by it. to give the brief version, there was a man whose foot had necrotic flesh on it. It was like all black. I saw a picture of it. It was really gross.
This man went to get prayed for by some witch doctors. They didn't heal him. He went to the doctor. They gave him medicine. It didn't work. He heard about a pastor who was in town and a pastor came and that the pastor would heal people and so he is like, okay, I'll go to this pastor. So he met with the pastor and the pastor laid hands on the guy's foot and he prayed for it and he said that the instant the guy prayed the pain in his foot went away and then two weeks later it was totally healed and I saw his foot and like it has still a scar on it from
you know, from where the flesh was dead, but it's totally fine, like it's totally functioning. And so I was saying this to my friend and I was like, well, you know, it's hard to say because like it was two weeks later, you know, maybe it just would have gotten better anyways, you know.
JD (11:24)
It was a,
put on my skeptic hack, it was a photo, right? You didn't actually see his neck, yeah.
Tommy (11:29)
Yeah, right.
You can always, there's always, it's definitely not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And so I said this and I was kind of like, you know, because when I present this to non-Christians, I kind of assume they're going to be skeptical. So I'm kind of softening it for them, which maybe I shouldn't do, but that's what I was doing. And then my friend is like, no, I think he actually just experienced a miracle. And I was like, yeah, sure. mean, don't let me stop you. That's what you think happened.
JD (11:48)
Yeah
some of my pastor says, don't don't give somebody's no for them, which is how they get hundreds of volunteers for the church. But also apparently how you can share the gospel to people who you think are skeptical of it.
Tommy (11:57)
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
JD (12:06)
so I wanted to talk with you a little bit about earning to give because this is something that we think is a good path for some Christians. At Christians for Impact, we want to have a maximum impact on the world while honoring key commitments and not breaking God's law or lying or cheating to do that. There are definitely ways to lie, cheat and steal to accumulate wealth, but then there are also honest ways to accumulate wealth.
into steward talents and gifts that God has given you in order to leverage those for serving the least of these. And yeah, I think in principle, finance careers can be used for this. So I'd like to address those some dangers, some pitfalls potentially. What are some of the dangers you see of this path? It was raised in a discussion I was in lately, some Bible verses warning about trusting too much in wealth. Let me pull some up here and...
Maybe that can set the tone, set the tone a bit. I think we're all familiar with what Jesus says about mammon and how you can't serve both God and money or mammon. Mammon being the love of money. But then we read in the Proverbs, Proverbs 11, 28, it warns against trust and riches or Proverbs 30. The speaker is asking the God to give him neither poverty nor riches, right? That both would be so distracting. We have,
Tommy (13:12)
Thank
JD (13:30)
I think this one speaks for earning to give, but you have Jesus calling the rich young ruler to sell all he has and to give to the poor and to follow Jesus. But then we also have Jesus warning against all kinds of greed, be on guard against all kinds of greed. In Luke 12, he talks about that. One of the most interesting examples is in Acts, Where Ananias and Sapphira, Sapphira are...
Tommy (13:55)
Yeah.
JD (13:59)
are struck dead basically for giving a lot of what they have but not all of what they have. So that's like a warning for people who maybe earn to give and make a big pledge but don't give all of it. But I've heard that interpreted away as, well, they were actually condemned for lying to the local church. I don't know how you, yeah, yeah.
Tommy (14:11)
Yeah.
That's also what I've Yeah.
Yeah.
JD (14:22)
which is very
convenient for people who don't give everything away. you easier said than done, right? But what do you think about these spiritual dangers of earning the gift?
Tommy (14:29)
Yeah, I mean I think one point to why I don't know if it would be that Zacharias when he talks to Jesus, or sorry, Zacchaeus when he talks to Jesus, I believe he gives away half of what he had, which is not all of what he had, and presumably he was wealthy so he still had some of the wealth left. That's a classic verse that rich people want to use to keep their stuff, so that's just one point there. Yeah, I don't know.
JD (14:52)
Is that
the, I'll give four fold of what I owe and up to half of what I have. Is it like that first? Okay, yeah. He doesn't give everything.
Tommy (14:55)
Yeah, right. Right, right, exactly. But he doesn't give everything. So like, he's still,
you know, I think there's some room. Yeah, I don't know.
I think it is a real temptation. Like for me, personally.
If I, if my salary would be cut in two thirds, I would be sad and I would be sad primarily because now I'm making less money and that's like, just that fact gives me joy. So that is almost certainly sin. And like, I also would be sad because I can't do as much with my money. And I think, I think since going to India made a commitment to be more radical with my money, but.
That is, I think, the biggest danger is our society places a high... Money is an idol, I guess, obviously, but it's less, I think, the money itself that's the idol, at least in my experience in this culture, but the ability to make the money. It's like, this guy's rich. He must be cool. It's like that money gives you some type of status signal. I remember reading...
JD (15:58)
Yeah.
Tommy (16:00)
This is just some random post on Reddit, but I think it signifies this idea where some guy is hypothesizing about his high school reunion and he talks about the nerd getting out of a $200,000 Bentley and being in a well-dressed suit. That's kind of...
That can be kind of the hope, it's like, okay, I used to be not as cool, but now I have money, so now I'm cool. And I think that's a real temptation. I think the trust in money, yeah, like I think that's a real thing too. This probably broadly applies to the West, and again, it is a big distinction from India, but like, because we have so much, we feel like we don't need God, and...
having a lot of money just exacerbates that problem. It's like, I'm self-sufficient. I don't really need God. I'm doing things on my own. So think those are big problems. I think that problem is arguably solved by committing to more radical giving because like...
then it forces you, then you are depending on some sense, at least in a slightly greater sense than you were before. Yeah, so I guess that's what I would say, is I think there are real dangers, arguably there are real dangers in every career, so let's say you go into career like teaching, which is lower paid, but you go to benefit other people and you want to have an impact on students, you could put your worth in like, I'm such a good person because of how I'm helping these students despite my low salary. So I think...
I think those temptations are real, but I think they're also just the temptations of someone who works in quantitative finance as a Christian is going to be different than the one who works as a teacher. I don't know if I would say one is necessarily better or worse, but I think one thing I do think is that if you choose to go in high paying job, you should do that intentionally and have a plan of giving in mind. Like what most people do and like what I'm doing going forward.
JD (17:43)
Yeah
Tommy (17:45)
and I actually heard about this from a conference when I was in college is like pick a number and give everything above that because I think I said I alluded to this earlier but percentages is just fake because that's not how money works actually it was actually the group I was part of in college Christian Union was a it's I don't it doesn't it's not as big anymore but it had a conference and it was like
JD (17:51)
Yeah
Tommy (18:05)
banking talk, like a breakout session. And there was like me and one other guy there who I guess was going into banking in the Christian space. And so we got to ask some questions. that was one of the one of the women there. She was like, me and my husband do is we just pick a number and we give everything about that. And that I think is like almost in a second. Yeah.
JD (18:20)
Yeah, yeah, that's what Jason Dykstra does. Yeah, because
then it is about how much you keep and not how much you give away because you're going to feel better and better as your income goes up. Even if you consume more and more, if you just do a percentage, right? Like Bill Gates can live on what 10 % of his income and be a billionaire, right? So I have a hmm. Yeah, no.
Tommy (18:32)
Right. Exactly.
Exactly, yeah, right. that's also where
the woman of the two pence comes in where it's like, you know, it's not, I don't think...
I really think earning to give, I don't, maybe this puts me in a minority in the EA camp, but I'm much less prescriptive about it, of it's like, I'm a numbers guy, and so when I read scripture and I think about how to love and serve other people and love the least of these and spread the word, I'm like, well the most efficient way for me to do that is to make a bunch of money and give it to 500k and then have those missionaries spread the word. I think that's good because that's I believe I should do that, and in some sense I think it's true, but I would also think.
someone who just really cares about like serving the homeless in their city or serving like alcoholics in their city, that's less like, you know, effective. But if that's their passion and that's what the Lord has put in their heart, then I think that's where I would go to like, we're all members of the body and each of us have different functions.
JD (19:31)
Yeah, but
if you were to do that, would you feel like you were neglecting your talents in the way that God wired you?
Tommy (19:38)
I think... yeah. I would... I'm not gonna put it out of the question that potentially God could someday call me out of this and into something else.
JD (19:46)
Is it more that you
reserve the right for God to call people to do what God wants them to do? And you know that God does that. He does it in scripture. He calls people to do seemingly crazy things. And we don't want to say like, you know, God's wrong because he's not acting according to my like 21st century optimization formula. know? Yeah. So, okay. I know your phone's going to die any minute. So I want to...
Tommy (20:03)
Right, exactly.
Yeah, that's right.
JD (20:09)
Yeah, if there's a rough stop, that's why. But I want to maybe flag just those other tips for people who want to go into an earning to give career, things they should keep in mind. And then just like some other considerations about how to give well. Yeah, Jason Dykstra talks about that setting that limit before you start earning money. That seems like a good number. I think he settled on like 60,000 for him and his family, but they're in rural Michigan, so it's maybe.
It's a different number for everybody. It's not a competition, but that involves prayer. involves getting everyone involved, like getting your family involved, your spouse, and being realistic about what you can commit to and committing early so you don't let that lifestyle creep. I know Jason Dykstra has this document, which you can DM us if you're interested in this document. I can share it with you, but it's like a guide for avoiding lifestyle creep. It involves like committing when you're in college to what you're going to spend as soon as you.
leave college and setting up like regular, actually moving to the right neighborhood. Cause if you move to the wrong neighborhood, your peer group has kind of decided for you in a sense. And you're surrounded by all these like, like high earners, like big rollers, you know, spending a lot of money on the ski vacations. And so that's really important. And being a part of community, like the effective altruism community, where there are people who are like intentionally challenging and encouraging each other to be content with less.
where it's kind of normalized, right? That seems like on balance a really good thing. And yeah, of course, prayer throughout it all, And doing it for the right reasons and not trying to like impress people, but like doing it because you care about stewarding what you have well and being obedient to Jesus and serving the poor. But anyways, those are some things that come in mind is like really important to consider before earning to give.
Tommy (21:59)
Yeah.
JD (21:59)
or pursuing
that path. what did I miss? What would you add to someone who's maybe like 22 or maybe older and they're thinking of pursuing this path? one last thing. Jason thought, and I like this, he thought that Christians who are interested in this, before they go all in on earning to give, they need to demonstrate with a few years of their giving that they're actually serious about it. Because one thing some people do is they say they're going to earn to give and they just never give, right? They just keep earning money.
Tommy (22:07)
Yeah.
JD (22:27)
They keep putting it in the bank. keep investing. know a lot of Christians who do this and they give away maybe 10 % even as their income goes to really high brackets. like that's like honestly not that sacrificial if you're like earning six figures, right? and they kind of put it off for later date. So he thinks that you really need to demonstrate and be honest with yourself within a few years that you actually are giving away serious amounts. And that goes back to making a commitment early, right? but that self honesty seems like really key.
Tommy (22:53)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that, but I would definitely agree with that. Yeah, I feel like it does. Like, I think I would have been benefited by being more intentional when I'm in. Like, I've kind of over time been like, okay, I'm probably keeping too much and I should get more. Arguably even now it's too much and I should do more intentional reflection on that. So yeah, I think I would agree that it...
JD (22:56)
Yeah.
Tommy (23:24)
Yeah, I think intentionality is just a big thing because again, the temptation is like, I'm giving so much away. And like, at least for me, I'm obviously giving way more than all my coworkers, all my secular coworkers. So it's very easy. And even some Christians, it's very easy to like check that box and be like, I'm a good person or whatever. I'm like doing my duty. I, you know, I would hope.
God loves a cheerful giver, that it's less about checking the box, it's more about doing something actively. And actually, this is one advice that I would give that I wouldn't have given before coming to India, that going to India was huge for me, and now it's not like, oh, I have to give money to go save Christians that are on the other side of the world. Now it's like, Because now it's like, wow, this is what my money's going to? This guy is a Christian because of my donation?
JD (24:05)
Yeah, you seem very cheerful. Yeah, I mean, you're always cheerful, but it made you even more joyful, I see.
Tommy (24:17)
I hear his testimony of his life being transformed. that's actually, I think, advice that I would definitely give is it's very good to give to personal causes. EA is good, like the straight EA Malarian SEA, that is good. Right. I think that's good and I do donate to that, I think it's, maybe it's in, but it's harder for me to get as excited about that as it is like 500k.
JD (24:30)
EAA effective vouchers and using data and evidence to get better. Yeah.
Tommy (24:45)
Arguably I 5-Hr-K is more important because it's bringing people to Jesus, but even aside from that, just having a personal involvement in things I give is good because then it's less like, I just want to do this and I'm making a of money, and I guess I should give it away, and it's like, no I'm doing this because I can actually bless this ministry that I care about and I want it to succeed.
JD (25:06)
Yeah, I think there's this notion among people who think about effectiveness, which is like, don't do this short-term mission trip. Don't waste the money on going yourself. Everybody does that. People don't actually give to things they don't see. But that's where a of impact is. That's where the low overhead is. That's where the low costs are. It's where nobody will go. It's where funding is neglected. Don't do a short-term mission trip where you're not going to help. That's just a learning trip. Like give instead.
But you're saying, actually going and seeing where I was giving made you much more excited about giving. And now you want to give more, it's transformed you in at least a small way. Yeah.
Tommy (25:39)
Yeah, right.
I would think that short-term submissions, I wouldn't even really call when I did short-term submissions because I didn't really do anything. Yeah, I'm very pro learning trip and experiences. Yeah, short-term missions, I think I probably feel similar to everyone else, but again, I think short-term missions arguably is like, maybe this is too cynical, but it's like a spiritual vacation sentence. Some people will just go to just a vacation and it's like kind of the same thing.
JD (25:47)
It's more like a learning trip, right?
Tommy (26:09)
But in the sense of you're not really doing it for other people, it's kind of for yourself, but it's for yourself in a way where you get to learn more about other people's experiences and struggles, which can give you more empathy.
JD (26:16)
Yeah.
When do you think people should go? Should they go after they're already giving to something they've determined? And effectiveness too, like effectiveness played a big role into where you gave, you wanted to give to where you could fund church planters at a low cost. Whether it's your for more funding or there's like a transparent charity, so you gave to 500K. But was it because you were already giving and you just wanted to like do a deeper vet? Cause this isn't like as deeply vetted as like a lot of public source, you know, like a lot of give-all charities, there's spreadsheets online.
Tommy (26:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
JD (26:50)
thousands of people giving to them. It's a less sensitive and so more transparent operation than like 500K, for instance. Yeah.
Tommy (26:57)
Right, right, right,
yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think, you know, that's a good question. So for me personally, I went to India more for myself. it's just kind of selfishness. Like I just wanted to experience it see it. And it was actually more when I went, then I was like, okay, now I've got to give to this. Like I wasn't really giving to it before. But since then, like I'd given a little, but like a one-time thing that wasn't that much. But then after that, I'm like, no, this is like,
JD (27:08)
More for yourself. Yeah.
Tommy (27:26)
this is it. And it actually coincided with a large pay increase for me. So it's like, have this extra money, what should I do? And now it's like, all right, it's going to 500K. So I think that's, Yeah, that's, guess, it's a good question. I think seeing, I mean, ultimately, I it would just depend on for each person, do you actually have something that you're passionate about? Because that's like,
Again, that's like my temptation is like, okay, I can give this money, but am I doing it because I really care? 500k is great, but it's still like when I think about it, I'm like, but would I give like, I don't know, 10 hours of my week to it? I'm like, I don't know if I would. Because I don't know, that's more just getting into separate personal things. But I think it's very...
I think as much as possible to care about the ministry and to know, to like feel the impact. like, know, GiveWell is very well documented and so you can like know the impact, but I think that's very distinct from feeling the impact. And I think the feeling part is pretty important to like help with motivation.
JD (28:30)
Yeah, yeah.
That's good. That's good. I like what you said about the teacher example too. Point that back about how like teachers have equal ambitions. I wanted to be a teacher for most of my life. And I know one of the reasons I wanted to be a teacher is I'm a big extrovert. And I also care a lot about like what people in my immediate surrounding think of me. And I think I had this idea that like I'd be, it's kind of embarrassing to say that loud, but I'd be like the cool teacher, you know, or like I'd be someone who could leave this lasting personal impression in the lives of my students in this kind of.
way that made sense in my head is a story. When I think back on my life, at the end of my life, I want to be someone who has like a legacy, not necessarily of my own children, but like people that I've affected or really helped in some kind of like intellectual way. And so that drew me quite a lot to teaching.
All right, well that was that with Tommy, his phone died, but wanted to share that a bit about Earning to Give. We do have a profile on our website that talks about Earning to Give, gives some Christian advice for pursuing this, and also information about different career pathways and their income, upper income trajectories. We also have other podcasts with Christians who do earn to give. You can check out our episode with Jason Dykstra, where he goes into the weeds about how to find effective charities to give to.
We also are bringing on more Christians who have done this or something similar. as always, if you're interested in getting free one-on-one career advice about Ernie DeGueff, for instance, we would love to connect with you and connect you to older, wiser Christians who would love to pray with you, for you, also challenge you to not do this for the wrong reasons.
reach out to us. You can sign up for free on our website at christiansforimpact.org.
